The Jewish problem and solution in CP victory world

Ahab

one of the problems that would be created after a CP victory is the rise of the Jewish problem. Most of the TL about this topic tend to ignore this and simply say that the amount of anti-semitism will reduce over time. I don't think so.
My idea is that Germany will create a Puppet Jewish republic in western Belarus (the areas of Brest and Hordana oblasts) were the jews made almost 20% of the population already and because Belarus was very de-populated, the jews will have not much of a problem to colonise it. The jews will come from most of eastern europe but also probably from France, who has many chances to become fascist dictatorship in this scenario (Lets say that the CP win at 1918, Germany gets Brest-Litovsk treaty in the east and white peace in the west)
What do you think about that idea? Does the Jewish state have any chances? How would it look like? Does it have any chance to be a regional power? Please discuss Politely. :)
 

BlondieBC

Banned
As far as i can tell, there is about a zero % chance of a Jewish state. You might get a majority Jewish area in either Germany or the A-H, but this is also not likely. I can see Poland expelling the Jews over time, and if there was a more friendly German or A-H controlled area, this area might become Jewish majority. I have looked at a lot of sources, and except a plan to count Yiddish as a German dialect, and for Germany to annex areas that were a Plurality of Jews, I have seen no reference to Jewish state in the area. This plan was not popular in Germany and it died quickly.

No massive Jewish settlement in Trans Jordan, unless the Brits end up with the area somehow. Some more Spanish Jews perhaps, but no Eastern European Jews. Saloniki might be interesting.

BTW, prewar, the Russians and Poles talked of a Jewish Problem. Post a CP win, the Russians would not have a Jewish, and the Poles would be the main one talking about the Jewish Problem. Russia lost most of its Jews in the post war treaty, and my guess is they would expel the remainder.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Paul V McNutt said:
The Zionist movement still exists and raises money to buy land in Ottoman Palestine.
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Which allows a few 10,000's of additional Jews into Palestine. The new Jews in Palestine were unpopular with pretty much all groups, including the old Jews. A Jewish majority nor near majority in Palestine will not happen.
 

ANARCHY_4_ALL

Check out A Shift In Priorities in this very thread. Poland gets all anti-semetic and Germany intervenes with the help of White-Russia. They create a Jewish homeland in Eastern Europe. Portions of Poland, Ukraine, and Western Russia make up it. Most of the world's jews have immigrated to it.
 

Sicarius

Saladan said:
But it's the Ottomans who own it and what reason would they have to sell it?
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I assume everyone is referring to the practice, as in OTL, of Jews actually buying land in the Ottoman Empire. As in, real estate, not paying the Ottomans to cede them independent land. It's how the early Zionists moved to Palestine.
 

RousseauX

Donor
Sumeragi said:
First of all.... Why would there be a "Jewish Problem" just because CP won?
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The "Jewish problem" have always being a part of Europe, long before WWI, the answer is, there is no reason to think it would go away just because the CP won.
 

Snake Featherston

Banned
There won't be a Jewish problem in any Central Powers victory in any such ATL except in the idea of Zionists. The Central Powers aren't going to evolve a Nazism that wants to slaughter all the Jews, neither are the Allies. Anti-Semitism will be deeper and much more banal but it won't lead to death camps. Those reflected the pitfalls of the end of the old order and the emergence of the Luegerites into a movement on a continental scale.
 

NothingNow

Banned
Saladan said:
Why the hell would the ottomans want to sell any land?
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To create a loyal(ish) population in the Levant that doesn't have any real ties to local power brokers, while diluting the relative power of Arab landlords and power brokers in a sensitive region.

Sure, they might be flaming socialists for the most part, but they aren't going to complain about much besides the heat.
 

Ahab

the jewish problem existed well before the first world war. my sugestion is one soloution for it in a CP victory world. If the CP win and Palestaine is still under the ottomans there would be no jewish state over there. Now, the new nations of Poland and Ukraine will have a big problem of traditonal anti-semetism as might nationalist govarments who will rise i France, Russia (if it doesn't go red), Italy (who might also go red) and even victorios Germany, A-H, and the ottomans, who started to be very anti-zionist in that time. Now, the jews will want to go to the US who might close her door for them, but Germany will want an ally in eastern europe who will acept her as his lord, and they would find the the jews perfect for this matter, so Germany may want to reward them for their loyalty with a state of their own.
 
Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf

Donor
Two of Germany's top men are Jews - A Ballin, the shipping magnate who presumably won't kill himself if the CP win, and Walter Rathenau who served as a financial advisor of the highest order.

While I can agree that newly-independent Poland and Ukraine, with their independent identities tied up in pushing nationalism, are going to see problems with their sizable Jewish populations, I don't think that the rest of Europe will to any great degree.

I also don't see any hope for an independent Israeli state with the Ottomans retaining control over Palestine - why would they want to stir up a hornet's nest? On the other hand, Zionist-funded immigration is less of a problem because money buys land and the landholder gets compensated. In time, maybe this would lead to a degree of self-rule.

But I don't think that paragraph 3 above solves paragraph 2 above, since Zionist funding would not likely go to what Westernised Jews would see as their somewhat backward East European counterparts

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 

Snake Featherston

Banned
Ahab said:
the jewish problem existed well before the first world war. my sugestion is one soloution for it in a CP victory world. If the CP win and Palestaine is still under the ottomans there would be no jewish state over there. Now, the new nations of Poland and Ukraine will have a big problem of traditonal anti-semetism as might nationalist govarments who will rise i France, Russia (if it doesn't go red), Italy (who might also go red) and even victorios Germany, A-H, and the ottomans, who started to be very anti-zionist in that time. Now, the jews will want to go to the US who might close her door for them, but Germany will want an ally in eastern europe who will acept her as his lord, and they would find the the jews perfect for this matter, so Germany may want to reward them for their loyalty with a state of their own.
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What do you mean "Jewish problem?".
 

mikegold

BlondieBC said:
No massive Jewish settlement in Trans Jordan, unless the Brits end up with the area somehow. Some more Spanish Jews perhaps, but no Eastern European Jews. Saloniki might be interesting.
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Transjordan means the far side of the Jordan river from the European perspective; i.e., the modern Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. You're referring to Cisjordanian Palestine. A little archaic in modern parlance, but the term would have been understood in the era.
 
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