They don't always become worse than their predecessors. Hell just look at the American Revolution itself for a good example of the successor elites being generally better. There are enough people who remember American before Long fucked the political system that I have confidence that as long as an Anti-Populist Party faction wins (since all the other radicals are pretty minor overall) things will get better for America.
The Iron Eagle III - Fallen Eagle
- Thread starter Kaiser of Brazil
- Start date
If they want to dismantle the Long system while respecting the law.
Not according to the principle, if they could do it, we can too.
In history, we have cases where the whole system was not bad. Long, gave jobs, education and a health system to the masses of the poor. Now, instead of going with the slogan of destroying everything that Long has built, anti-populists should give people hope.
Problem is with how rigged the electoral system had become, there is no way any peaceful transfer of power happened under populist’s thumb, revolution only happened when every peaceful way for regime change have been blocked.
@Kaiser of Brazil Is there any hope for this timeline? Everybody involved is either corrupt, incompetent, fantastical, colonized, genocidal, going to war, about to be a war zone or heading in that direction. India is honestly the only country you can somewhat cheer for. All the people in each nation you can like are either dead, useless or about to die. This world is so bleak that I won’t be surprised if it ends with a nuclear blast hitting the world. The end scene being a lonely woman in the winter trying to speak broken German to the ashes of her children. It’s just why? Let there be light please.
This indeed very dark TL. AANW looks like pretty much utopia even on its bleakest moments.
The Kaiser when thinking up this beautifully written horribly dystopian reality saw AANW and said “I can make this but better”. Then furiously got to work writing this thing.
I mean I would say that things will get better in the same way things got better after the black death, the Chinese civil wars, the colonization of the Americas/genocide of the Native Americans, Mongol/Steppe invasions and so much more. Frankly the believe that the world has to be constantly good is a rather modern idea that simply does not apply to OTL at least as far as most of history is concerned.
Does it? I mean in that TL Europe is completely devastated, China is under a totalitarian regiment with some 2 billion people and plans to rule the world and use bio-weapons, and the US and its allies hold power with an iron fist which might one day tighten its hold on the world even further.
I think that US flag works better for the "Red Spies in the White House" TL but other than that pretty much, the Reich might win the Cold War here and there's a good chance nukes will fly eventually even if Kaiser has been trying really hard to keep the narrative from ending with a caboom
They are alive, but following the "Blood Purge" of the Goebbels family, they mostly have been trying to avoid politics in their personal lives.
It came to my mind when I started writing Hoffa, it wasn't my initial plan for America.
You underestimate just how political fanaticism can be linked to cognitive dissonance. Even Hoover at the height of the Depression had his supporters.
They will be included in soon, I can safely say the first three are staunch Republicans, Reagan is a member of the Society for Defense of Liberty within the GOP as well. The others are more akin to the Populist Left that is coalescing around Powell.
Why? Simple, from the first moment when I decided to write a Nazi Victory Timeline I made up my mind about it. I would never want to write some story where one of, if not THE, most twisted, inhumane and cruel regime of the modern age wins and have people read it with a smile. I would never write a reality where around a hundred million people die and have people think "hey, at least things look hopeful, the future will certainly be better". While there may be ups and downs, in general this will be an uncontestedly worse world than the one we live in and I am leaving no margin for people to believe otherwise.
I believe it is a mistake for people to write Nazi Victory stories like, say, Thousand Week Reich, where the Nazis get beaten after a bloody war and the "natural order" is restored. It's basically saying that, despite all the loss, the "good side" will eventually always come back and win when history has repeatedly shown that's not the case.
This Germany is a Nation founded on essentially different, if not opposite, ideals to the United States, even if they arguably used similar methods against those who opposed their Manifest Destiny. Demands for more rights are not an inevitable, we only see that as an essential because we live in a world where these values "won" the Ideological struggle of the 19th and 20th centuries.
I doubt it. It feels like it will be destroyed sooner or later. Everybody hates it, and eventually could destroy themselves in a nuclear civil war.
That was their whole goal tbh
I highly doubt that
Building up a nation on genocide is hardly a recipe for Civil Rights and regardless of whatever one's view on OTL America is I think anyone can agree that the Reich becoming "good" is extremely unlikely
I mean while I doubt they will have the same push of liberalism as the US I do see things getting better as things improve.
Also while I said America one can also include Russia, China, France and others in the sense of how they destroyed/assimilated all other ethnic or cultural minorities into the current state.
I can sorta agree but considering how almost every nation OTL has participated in some form genocide ethnic or cultural, oppression, and in general only got to the current world due to horrible actions, its not like such things are fully impossible.
I agree that most of those timelines try too hard to have their cake and eat it too with the bad guys being horrible only for the good guys to become ultra progressive and ultimately win the conflict bringing progressive values to the world. However I do have to say that things staying the exact dystopian way is also not that realistic since eventually things improve considering how several periods of OTL were just as bad if not worse in terms of the overall suffering of the world population.
I do agree that any way things go the world will be vastly alien to our own even if things get good.
While I agree with this sentiment I have seen read enough history that at this point I have grown completely desensitized to the whole situation of dystopia and Nazi Germany timelines. At this point I am way more interested in the changes over things like ethnicity, ideology, technology, and so on than the tragedy.
I think its more unrealistic to think things will go as per OTL and get "better" in comparison to these periods of bloodshed which were, as I must remind anyone reading this, the norm
It’s difficult to say who can be considered good as that term has always been subjective to situations. The common people who don’t have a universal viewpoint can’t know depending on the states enemies who is right and wrong at the time period they live in. You couldn’t say that the crusades were bad to a crusader anymore than you could say the invasion of Soviet Russia was bad to a Nazi. Neither would believe what is being done is bad, and would say if that was questioned “well the enemy is worse for this reason and that”. Same thing you could say that Manifest Destiny is bad to a 19th Century American, or that Russian expansion into the Caucuses is bad to a 19th Century Russian. It’s the same thing different experiences and places. Democracy if it could be done in Nazi Germany, wouldn’t exactly change the circumstances of what they done. I’m not defending genocide or attempting to clear any states wrongdoing, it’s just unlikely the circumstances would change much even if the Nazis did become “good”.
At this point literally nothing will change their minds. Hell even in the Americas Franco, Hispanic, Lusophone, and Anglo people still defend horrible ancestors or parents. Knowing they committed genocide doesn’t stop their attempts. Why would Germany be any different?
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What I mean was that things tend to get worse or better but things dont tend to stay awful or good for all of time. Also I said good but never specified what that would mean. Considering the changes if the world does get better it would be massively alien to us with its own values with its own version of "good".
This is not criticism towards you mind you, I get where you are coming from and I wish things went that route too as far as humanity goes
However I do think this creative decision of Kaiser in particular is accurate to the paradign shift that a Nazi Victory would be if it happened
We may have gotten "lucky" in these last few decades, but I think it can not be understated how much misery a shift of the same proportion(like, say, the Atlantic Slave Trade) brought to the world and for how many centuries it lasted
However I do think this creative decision of Kaiser in particular is accurate to the paradign shift that a Nazi Victory would be if it happened
We may have gotten "lucky" in these last few decades, but I think it can not be understated how much misery a shift of the same proportion(like, say, the Atlantic Slave Trade) brought to the world and for how many centuries it lasted