I wonder what if a portal to OTL opened and what the reaction of the OTL world would be to the madness of the 1960s ?
The Iron Eagle II - Days of Strife
- Thread starter Kaiser of Brazil
- Start date
Can China go Dengist like in OTL and become an economic superpower? They’re in a very good position for it. Germany if it becomes more pragmatic will want to woo China to side with them and Germanys enemies would want to avoid that. The political maneuvering would be very interesting.
Ok but hypothetically what would have been the result if the Ostkrieg went maximally wrong for Nazi Germany and went maximally right for Russia. (Eg; everything that could go wrong for Germany does and everything that could go right for Russia does) What would be the result?
Ok but hypothetically what would have been the result if the Ostkrieg went maximally wrong for Nazi Germany and went maximally right for Russia. (Eg; everything that could go wrong for Germany does and everything that could go right for Russia does) What would be the result?
OTL 1960's, speciality Europeans, North America and Israel would are horrified. I wouldn't be amazed if Soviets, Americans and Israelis decide forgot all disputes and try go against nazis. Would Soviets help Tsarist Russia? Perhaps. Israel would give all possible support for TIE Israel. OTL USA might try tolk TIE USA take anti-nazi combat seriously. OTL France would help Free France.
And from Linz Pact would be lot of refugees who don't want live under fascist regimes.
1) Yes, as a matter of fact they will be in a stronger position in this world's mid 60s than they were in our own, both internally and externally. Is it likely that they will open up as much as they did? That's up in the air.
2) I can see the Russians reclaiming all of Moscowien, the Caucasus and Don-Wolga, perhaps Northeastern Ukraine. Beyond that, Remer would rather approve a nuclear annihilation than give up Ukraine and Ostland, especially as the lands of Crimea and everything from Kherson up to Mariupol is inhabited by Germans and an strategic territory to project power in the Black Sea.
1) Yes, different strategic decisions by the Russian Generals, a more successful initial offensive in Operation Poltava (likely by strengthening the Volkssturm before the war as a PoD), as well as another bold move by the West would make the Germans cut their losses. It's likely Remer would be more willing to trade much of Moscowien in return for the return of the resource-rich Caucasus. But eventually they would come back for the rest.
2) If the Nazis bothered with that beyond making vague statements to appease old colonialist aristocrats in the 30s they could have Togoland returned by Laval in the 40s. The issue is that they had little interest in Africa and wanted to spare all settlers to the Lebensraum project. I see a German colony in Africa mostly being used for extractions and military projection in the region until this colony ends up seized by De Gaulle in 1951 and Hess won't pick up a war over it, only demanding the equipment and personnel returned.
3) Rhetorically they will always claim France, practically? They will be lucky to retake Northern Africa and it would take fortune to favor the Bonapartes again for them to set foot in Europe again.
Speaking of the Bonapartist regime, how are the French Caribbean, New Caledonia, Reunion, Comoros, and French Polynesia doing ITTL?
What if Iraqi monarchy survived?
What if Arab Federation was created and survived?
What if socialists remained in power in Japan?
What if Umberto ruled Italy during Angriff?
What if the Nazis lost Caucasus in Ostkreig?
What if Israel had multiple nuclear weapons in the start of the Nazi Invasion?
What if Arab Federation was created and survived?
What if socialists remained in power in Japan?
What if Umberto ruled Italy during Angriff?
What if the Nazis lost Caucasus in Ostkreig?
What if Israel had multiple nuclear weapons in the start of the Nazi Invasion?
Presumably nothing good, even if Italy would have gone down fighting.
1) I think I have answered that one before.
2) The Arab Federation being created changes a lot of the dynamics of the Suez War. It is likely that Israel would not be involved with the Jordanians and Iraqis being neutral and controlling Gaza-Negev. One problem comes after the war if (as its likely) Britain is defeated. I can see Israel launching a desperate move to claim the Negev and reach the Straits of Tiran to have a sea route, otherwise they would be fully isolated, such a defeat at the hands of the IPF would make the Arab Federation Collapse. I don't see the Hashemites willingly giving that territory to Israel without risking a catastrophic loss in their already shaky authority post-Egyptian Revolution. Ironically, I could see the Israelis and Syrians uniting against this Arab Federation.
Otherwise, Israel will be eventually wiped out by the time the 12-day war happened. Eilat is their only chance to have access to friendly nations across the world and a "Do or Die" offensive to claim it, either by diplomacy or force, will happen regardless.
3) The Socialists in Japan will have to deal with the tensions within the Party as there would be a strong Faction seeking to follow the example of the Korean Peasant Leagues and create a Maoist State. When Long is out of power, Hoffa would be a more amicable leader to deal within his margins, one problem is that there would still be a conspiracy which will lead to Kuribayashi's death, linking several Elements of the National Police, the Yakuza, Nationalist groups and even the Imperial Palace itself, that is a threat a Japanese left-wing government would have a hard time dealing with in the early 60s when they have their own internal divisions.
4) If Umberto's coup succeeded, he would have to be cautious as Goebbels will look for the slightest excuse to invade Italy and he will still have a large sector of Italian society loyal to Fascism. I can see him publicly defending Pope Stephen which will prevent the flight of the Vatican, but Italy still is in such a harsh situation that their only hope is to join the Coalition of Nations and try to wrestle Nasser away from Goebbels. He would be no less supportive of the Italian Empire and he would not pull back from Ethiopia either way, but still would not go as far as the local authorities went, especially if he managed to negotiate a reopening of the Canal between Israel and the UAR.
After the Naumann Plot and the following years of Purge, I can see Goebbels still launching Operation Hadrian into Israel from Syria and Iran, most likely it would fail and, as a consequence, Italy will be invaded as they would be supportive of the Israelis to prevent the Canal from falling into Syrian/German hands. The question then is if the Coalition is willing to go to war over Italy. I believe the Platine Pact could send help mostly in terms of supplies and an small expedition, but any real help would have to come from the Coalition. The bombs will start flying between Germany and Italy eventually in the mid 60s and, when the Germans have to deploy more assets into the Italian Peninsula, it will leave them wide open in the East for a Russian assault. From there I see Goebbels starting a Third World War.
5) The Caucasus is really one of the few eastern territories that has been consistently productive to the Germans despite their active extermination campaign due to the sheer mineral and petrol resources of the region. Remer is not going to admit a peace which won't leave Germany with Grozny and Baku. But supposing he does, the Germans still have enormous sources of oil from Syria, Iraq, Iran, Libya, Algeria, Romania, Hungary, the North Sea and their own synthetic installations. They can afford the loss of the Caucasus in the Long term, but Remer himself can't afford such a defeat in the short term after his Roman-style takeover.
6) They would have used all of them in a tactical basis just as the Germans did, most likely it would involve the destruction of cities such as Homs, Damascus and Beirut in the opening of Operation Righteous Justice and further deployments aiming at the German Air bases in Cyprus and Turkey, as well as the German fleet off the coast of their country. Once put into the defensive, their remaining devices would be used for scorched land in the North as was done in Haifa, they don't have the delivery means to fire a weapon at Europe itself. But the Germans would have to be cautious as all cities, except maybe Jerusalem, could possibly blow up and bring them a firmly death.
One problem that would come is that, if the Israelis launch the bombs first, there is nothing that could talk Goebbels out of launching a retaliatory strike with far more than Nerve gas. Depending on the level of destruction, the Nazis could very well decide a whole campaign is unnecessary and glass the land. The problem for them would be the loss of Arab sympathy, Goebbels does care about how his allies see him, he was a propaganda Minister, but depending on how particularly irate he is, the answer can range from sending more Atomtruppen battalions all the way to turning every Kibbutzim into a radioactive wasteland.
He sounds like the kind of man who would go down fighting if the Nazis came over to his house. It's possible he could have fled to Bersheva, but I have made no plans for him yet.
I've always been partial towards him ruling a post-apocalyptic Greater Israel like in For All Time: Well Enough Alone.
I find that the likely reason why Diefenbaker would end up losing a snap election is that the PCs might have been in charge for too long. However, he was a great PM regardless—even in real life. As for Canadian relations with Britain, I think Canadians like the monarchy but can't stand the idea of a dictatorship. Quebec very much hates Britain and the Nazis. They'll likely try to align with Brazil in political ideals, but that would be hard, given the Canadian courts. Also, we could see the Canadians getting their constitution passed early, given how things are. The Canadian Bill of Rights created by Diefenbaker would have also been passed early. There's no question.
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1) What if Kuribayashi manage to survive?
2) What if Roosevelt lives and Churchill dies still and vice versa?
2) What if Roosevelt lives and Churchill dies still and vice versa?
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On one hand, he’d be a saner, if still autocratic, figure than Mao. On the other hand, the Party would take longer to realize no money was being made from Zhu De Thought than Mao Zedong Thought due to it.
