The High Seas Fleet sorties in support of Operation Michael

[white crowe]

What possible impact could a major sortie by the High Seas Fleet have had if it had been launched to support Operation Michael?

In particular, as I understand it, Lloyd George had held significant reserves in Britain as a way of keeping Haig on a shorter leash. If the HSF could have disrupted channel crossings (probably not materially directly but the threat could have caused problems) could this have had a major effect on the Western Front?

I doubt the HSF survives but if it can cause enough problems at a key time it might be a trade worth making. While the sailors did mutiny at this prospect later wasn't this also because of the perceived futility of the planned sortie and one with a realistic prospect of success of some sort would have morale boosting quality.

And most importantly does it have any prospect of success or would the combination of mines and torpedos from light forces neutered it before it could achieve anything substantial?

 

[eltf177]

At best I see another Jutland but with heavier losses on both sides. It would disrupt any move to France temporarily but in the end probably wouldn't change much...

 

[naraic]

Once the Dover Barrage in early 1915 the channel is very hard for a German fleet to access without spending itself on the mines.

 

[white crowe]

Once the Dover Barrage in early 1915 the channel is very hard for a German fleet to access without spending itself on the mines.

That the Germans are taking eye watering losses isn't in doubt but if they're at the mines what that does to the British cross channel supply chain at critical moments during Michael is the question and could that lead to the Germans doing better, maybe going as far to take the junction at Amiens.

 

[naraic]

That the Germans are taking eye watering losses isn't in doubt but if they're at the mines what that does to the British cross channel supply chain at critical moments during Michael is the question and could that lead to the Germans doing better, maybe going as far to take the junction at Amiens.

The British can sit behind their mines and continue to run convoys. It's a risk but I reckon it's one they would take.

The Germans will gut themselves running through mines and I don't believe they can sweep a channel. Any remnants can be mopped up.

 

[Captain Seafort]

The Hochseeflotte did sortie in late April 1918, but it was against one of the Norwegian convoys, and was lucky to avoid the Grand Fleet.

 

[Riain]

A sortie doesn't need to achieve much in itself, merely making an appearance on the first day would give the British Government too much information to deal with at the time and overload their decision making somewhat.

An option would be a sortie to cover the transfer of as many forces into the Flanders bases as possible, which would then fight a close campaign from this forward position. In late 1916 Flanders had a total of 23 destroyers, if similar forces were transferred in 1918, maybe beefed up by a light cruiser or two the KM could fight the barrage forces and threaten the Channel. This would be more of a threat than some timid capital ships.

 

[nbcman]

Was there anything critical being shipped from the UK to France at the start of Operation Michael or at anytime during the 15 days of the offensive? Even so, the US troops were still going to pour into France at a rate that averaged over 5,000 per day via ports that the HSF couldn't reach. Maybe General Gough gets sacked earlier if the Allied commanders get spooked by after the HSF sails out.

 

[Riain]

Was there anything critical being shipped from the UK to France at the start of Operation Michael or at anytime during the 15 days of the offensive?

The question is was there anything shipped from the UK to France that wasn't critical? The 60 odd divisions of the BEF require a constant and huge steam of supplies that cannot be broken for days on end without massive operational impacts, and British coal was fuelling French industry so the same applies there.

 

[nbcman]

The question is was there anything shipped from the UK to France that wasn't critical? The 60 odd divisions of the BEF require a constant and huge steam of supplies that cannot be broken for days on end without massive operational impacts, and British coal was fuelling French industry so the same applies there.

At best there would be a few of days of potential disruption of convoys or rerouting of convoys once the battle is joined and the HSF retires. Barring a death ride of the HSF, they can't stay in the channel for that long and certainly not the full 15 day duration of Operation Michael.

 

[Riain]

At best there would be a few of days of potential disruption of convoys or rerouting of convoys once the battle is joined and the HSF retires. Barring a death ride of the HSF, they can't stay in the channel for that long and certainly not the full 15 day duration of Operation Michael.

I wouldn't suggest that the HSF enters the Channel; my suggestion is that it makes some sort of sortie at the opening of Michael to give the British something more and potentially nasty to think about and this sortie provides cover to send 20 destroyers and 2(?) light cruisers to Flanders.

Its these destroyers and cruisers which make sorties into the Channel during the following 15 days, much like the 2 Battles of Dover Strait in 1916 and 1917. It is these sorties which would disrupt the crucial supply lines to the BEF, and combined with the serious reverses on land might change British decisions and outcomes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dover_Strait_(1917)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dover_Strait_(1916)

 

[DaveBC]

I'm not sure what the transit time from English port to ship to French port to destination is in this context but I'm assuming that it would be at least a few days lead time before any disruption in the Channel was felt at the front.

I don't rule out this possibility but I do wonder about the timing. We're only talking about a roughly two-week offensive to begin with, aren't we?

 

[Athelstane]

We've had more than one thread examine this possibility.

For example.

 

[CalBear]

If the HSF does anything but a quick in & out the Grand Fleet will very likely catch it at sea and then it's Good Night Irene.

The RN was much more powerful by 1918, compared to the force that, with a little good luck and bit less common sense from Sheer, would have wipe the HSF out at Jutland. The RN had all 5 Revenge class BB in commission, bringing the total number of BB with the 15"/42 gun to a total of ten. It was also reinforced by the USN's Battleship Division 9, including two 14" gun ships in New York and Texas. The two Renown class BC had also reached the fleet, adding another sixteen of the 15"/42, albeit on a much more vulnerable platform. Overall the Grand Fleet was stronger by two battleship divisions and a pair of BC (plus Fisher's death traps of the Courageous class).

The HSF had added one 13.5" gunned BC and the two 15" gun ships of the Bayern class. It had gone from badly outnumbered to horribly outnumbered.

 

[BlondieBC]

What possible impact could a major sortie by the High Seas Fleet have had if it had been launched to support Operation Michael?

In particular, as I understand it, Lloyd George had held significant reserves in Britain as a way of keeping Haig on a shorter leash. If the HSF could have disrupted channel crossings (probably not materially directly but the threat could have caused problems) could this have had a major effect on the Western Front?

I doubt the HSF survives but if it can cause enough problems at a key time it might be a trade worth making. While the sailors did mutiny at this prospect later wasn't this also because of the perceived futility of the planned sortie and one with a realistic prospect of success of some sort would have morale boosting quality.

And most importantly does it have any prospect of success or would the combination of mines and torpedos from light forces neutered it before it could achieve anything substantial?

Too late in the war for HSF to make a difference. Probably the best use of the capital ships would be to remove all but a skeleton crew. Use the extra men for occupation duty in the east. Take the freed up infantry regiments and add the to the attack plan in the west. Maybe they accomplish something useful.

You might be able to use some of the 15" guns destined for the warships as land based artillery. Maybe you could get some in range of the ports, and shell them.

If you insist on sortie of the HSF, all you can do is try to force a Jutland. It will not accomplish much. I guess with luck you can force/trick much of the Grand Fleet to stay in the North Sea for a few days. And it will do things like burn a lot of fuel oil, and probably tie up some destroyers. I guess there is some possible impact on the British logistics that we will notice. Probably not.

 

[DaveBC]

Too late in the war for HSF to make a difference. Probably the best use of the capital ships would be to remove all but a skeleton crew. Use the extra men for occupation duty in the east. Take the freed up infantry regiments and add the to the attack plan in the west. Maybe they accomplish something useful.

You might be able to use some of the 15" guns destined for the warships as land based artillery. Maybe you could get some in range of the ports, and shell them.

If you insist on sortie of the HSF, all you can do is try to force a Jutland. It will not accomplish much. I guess with luck you can force/trick much of the Grand Fleet to stay in the North Sea for a few days. And it will do things like burn a lot of fuel oil, and probably tie up some destroyers. I guess there is some possible impact on the British logistics that we will notice. Probably not.

You think that if the battleships are worthless, converting their crews into infantry brigades will be better?

 

[Bad@logic]

We've had more than one thread examine this possibility.

For example.

I remember starting to read that for a short period of time. Soon thereafter, I arrived at the part where 5 German battlecruisers go up against 5 Queen Elizabeth-class battleships and 8 British battlecruisers who are escorted by a superior number of destroyers and cruisers, wherein the Germans proceed to launch multiple successful torpedo attacks in daylight against a maneuvering and escorted enemy (and only losing a few torpedo boats in the process), destroy 4 British capital ships (including through the wonderful "British battlecruiser explodes!" characterization), severely damage 3 more, and do this all while losing only one of their own battlecruisers : apparently only the German übermensch mine that it ran into could do the trick, so in the end the British didn't themselves sink any German ships.

I decided there was no point in reading more after that.

 

[BlondieBC]

You think that if the battleships are worthless, converting their crews into infantry brigades will be better?

In the situation of Germany in 1918. Yes. Germany had managed to get the USA, UK, France, Japan, and Italy on the other side. Compare this to the combined German, A-H, and, Ottomans. Also, the location of the ports and bases was negative against Germany. In 1916, it would be a different story. In 1918, where the USA was not in the war, it could be a different story.

I see no reasonable scenario where you can win the war on land with surface naval action in 1918. But I can give you the supply reduction desired in this scenario on land. There was a major rail junction that was briefly held that would have crippled Allied supplies until the Aussie counter attack. If you add an extra division or so of German Infantry, these units just might, might hold this city. And then the war goes on probably until 1919. Some off chance of a peace offer.

So, the thread sort of is asking what should you do as Commander German Surface Forces. So lets go through the possibilities.

• I think the German Army will definitely win the land war. And the U-boat war is helpful. I provide support to the U-boats. I don't thin there is a lot that can be done with my surface to help in this effort. The cruiser and battleships of the Entente provide little to stop the U-boats. I need to keep my light surface forces ready to move in case we capture Calais. I need to preserve my hard to replace high-skilled naval personnel. I basically sit in port. I probably stop training new sailors since I can do that after the war, and I let the army have these men. I wait the 1919 budget fights where I have to start rebuilding the navy for the mid-1920's. I need to build a bunch of new 15" and probably 17" gunned ships. The 13.5" will need to be scrapped by 1925.
• I think the German Army could easily lose the war, but it will be a negotiated peace. Maybe lose A-L and keep gains in the east. I do much like above.
• I think the German Army is likely to lose the war. What do I want to do then. Stop construction on capital ships, and probably cruisers. Use main power to boost U-boat production if possible. Look at the naval artillery under production and see if I can get land based guns that can reach the French Channel ports used by the UK. I then want to free up as much manpower for the army as possible and I would like to not kill off my skilled naval personnel. Occupation duty is perfect. I probably also move much of my fleet to Baltic ports since it is harder for the UK to get their ships into the Baltic. I don't think this helps a lot, but when you are desperate, you try desperate things.

 

[white crowe]

Just to clarify, the possibility I'm considering here is that the sortie disrupts supplies crossing the channel for a short time.

Essentially it's swapping the any units in engaged for a disruption to the BEFs supply lines. Even if they don't sink a single transport, it seems possible that they could temporarily stop it, giving the German Army on the Western Front the edge needed to take and hold Amiens.

At this point I'm not sure how significant this will be but I do remember a discussion here that suggested it would have made a lot of Allied positions in Northern France and Belgium untenable due to the layout of the rail network.

 

[Purity of Violence]

There was a major rail junction that was briefly held that would have crippled Allied supplies until the Aussie counter attack. If you add an extra division or so of German Infantry, these units just might, might hold this city. And then the war goes on probably until 1919. Some off chance of a peace offer.

No, there wasn't. You're talking about Villers-Bretonneux, which the Germans captured on April 24. There was a very minor rail line running through the town, but a 'major rail junction' it was not, and it's not part of Michael in any event.

Just to clarify, the possibility I'm considering here is that the sortie disrupts supplies crossing the channel for a short time.

Essentially it's swapping the any units in engaged for a disruption to the BEFs supply lines. Even if they don't sink a single transport, it seems possible that they could temporarily stop it, giving the German Army on the Western Front the edge needed to take and hold Amiens.

What's a short time? A day or two before Grand Fleet arrives and inflicts the most devastating defeat in modern Naval history? Are you saying the BEF does not have enough supplies in France that a two day interruption in supplies will cause a total collapse? Anything to back that up? So if the High Seas Fleet sorties on the March 21 and causes, at most a couple of days of disruption, is this still affecting the BEF when the Germans first attack Villers-Bretonneux on April 4? How is British (and French, since they played a fairly important part in things) morale affected after they sweep the seas clean of the HSF?