The Grumman XP-50. "One heck of a what-if aircraft."

Here is a new Youtube video on the XP-50 fighter. It covers some interesting points on its development and illustrates how good a design it was.

The XP-50 showed much promise. If put into service in 1942 I think it would have been able to hold its own in the Pacific through the entire war. Against the Luftwaffe it may not have had as much advantage but it would have had the range for bomber escort missions. It also could have been improved for USAAF service.

The two main improvements I think would have benefitted the design would be changing to a conventional tail and using the P&W R-1830 engines. While having a twin tail helps with the low speed handling for carrier operations with a twin engined aircraft this is not so critical for land based airplanes. A conventional tail simplifies the manufacturing. And it's stronger for the same weight. And improves the rear visibility a little.

The P&W R-1830 engine with turbocharging worked well in the P-43 Lancer. And with its slightly narrower width is a better fit for a fighter. How much better would the XP-50 had been with these suggested changes? Probably not a huge amount but somewhat better. What prevented the XP-50 from being produced and put into service was in 1942 and 1943 other new fighter planes where being produced by American companies that filled the requirements. And Grumman was fully occupied building it's Naval planes. But there was some massive production capacity that might have been better utilized. Curtiss.

Perhaps the XP-50 should have replaced the P-40. It likely would have been a better fighter in everyway. With about twice the horsepower of a P-40 driving two propellers it would've been faster and with a much faster climb rate. Heavier armed and capable of carrying a heavier bombload then the P-40. Much longer ranged. And with the added protection of two robust radial engines for those long overwater missions in the Pacific and for absorbing combat damage from air or ground attack missions.

What circumstances in mid-1942 could have gotten Curtiss to halt production of the obsolescent P-40 and switch their Buffalo plant over to P-50 production? Production of the P-50 in late 1942 and 1943 would have helped outfit U.S. and Allied squadrons with a more capable airplane then the P-40. Lockheed and Republic just couldn't build their P-38s and P-47s fighters fast enough. And the P-51B was more then a year away. An interesting what-if alright.
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marathag

Banned
British Purchasing Commission isn't interested of North American's paper NA-73X in April 1940, since they had no history of making fighters.
Grumman has just flown the XF5F prototype at this time, and the BPC takes note, ans says to NAA
'Will you build the Grumman for us, in place of the Curtiss that you claim can improve on? You have experience with radials, and not inlines anyway'
 
The XP-50 showed much promise. If put into service in 1942 I think it would have been able to hold its own in the Pacific through the entire war. Against the Luftwaffe it may not have had as much advantage but it would have had the range for bomber escort missions. It also could have been improved for USAAF service.
We'd want from the P-50 to do much better than the P-40, an aircraft that was pretty well matched against the Japanese fighters (I'd say it was better than the main fighter IJA had, the Ki-43).
If it can do 400 mph at 25000, it should've been very useful against Luftwaffe, too. Your idea of turbocharged R-1830 is IMO better than the original turboed R-1820.
Someone will need to push the drop tank idea through the collective throats of the USAAF brass, though.

But there was some massive production capacity that might have been better utilized. Curtiss.

What circumstances in mid-1942 could have gotten Curtiss to halt production of the obsolescent P-40 and switch their Buffalo plant over to P-50 production?

P-40 was essential for the USAAF and LL needs in 1942, so that is a hard sell.
Better to have Bell making it - yes, Soviets liked the P-39, but they don't get to vote here. Vultee perhaps Fisher body factory - avoids the P-75 money pit? The Curtiss-Wright factory at St.Louis (where the CW 21 was produced, among other aircraft) is a contender, too. How much the Martin Maryland and Baltimore are actually worth in the grand scheme of things in 1942?
 
Better to have Bell making it - yes, Soviets liked the P-39, but they don't get to vote here. Vultee perhaps Fisher body factory - avoids the P-75 money pit? The Curtiss-Wright factory at St.Louis (where the CW 21 was produced, among other aircraft) is a contender, too. How much the Martin Maryland and Baltimore are actually worth in the grand scheme of things in 1942?
A while back, in my old thread on producing the Grumman Wildcat in Canada, someone proposed producing the XP-50 at Canadian Car and Foundry, which I think is actually a very interesting option for getting the aircraft into RAF hands over Europe and especially the wider spaces of the Mediterranean theater. CC&F had a relationship with Grumman prewar, Pratt and Whitney had a factory in Canada, the RAF had a reasonable desire not to be entirely reliant on aircraft purchases from the US- I believe that with a few serendipitous coincidences the whole thing could have come together!
 
A while back, in my old thread on producing the Grumman Wildcat in Canada, someone proposed producing the XP-50 at Canadian Car and Foundry, which I think is actually a very interesting option for getting the aircraft into RAF hands over Europe and especially the wider spaces of the Mediterranean theater. CC&F had a relationship with Grumman prewar, Pratt and Whitney had a factory in Canada,
Canadian production can always come in handy. Australia, too, they have had the R-1830 manufactured there (but no production of turboes).

the RAF had a reasonable desire not to be entirely reliant on aircraft purchases from the US-
Perhaps a bit overstated, the bolded part?
 
I just read the thread about this plane by the late Just Leo.
His drawing of the plane whit twin Continental IV 12 engines seemed to me to have the potential ( if the problems whit the Continental engines are ironed out) to be one of the best WW2 piston fighters.
 

Driftless

Donor
I just read the thread about this plane by the late Just Leo.
His drawing of the plane whit twin Continental IV 12 engines seemed to me to have the potential ( if the problems whit the Continental engines are ironed out) to be one of the best WW2 piston fighters.
I remember that "doodle" by Just Leo. As I recall, Leo was not a fan of the Hyper-engine projects (in hindsight, who was???), but a conventional and compact Continental IV-12 might have had possibilities. *edit* I'm not sure what engine I was thinking of, as the Continental was pretty much built along a pre-determined path. A Packard Inverted V maybe?
 
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Driftless

Donor
The earlier F5F was proposed to have 23mm Madsens as part of the armament. Could they have worked better than US Ordnance mis-adventures with the Hispanos, or were they just as likely to have poor design decisions made for US Manufacture. I know there's doubt about the utility of the Madsen's, but they did get trialed on several fronts.
 
Wasn’t this another of the variou aircraft designs that was let down by the engine not living up to the hype? Or am I thinking of another aircraft. (Or should I say a LOT of other aircraft as the engine petting the aircraft design now was sadly a common occurrence.
 
There was a pre war Bristol project that was a dead ringer for he short nose version.

There was a Bristol project that looked almost identical to the Skyrocket - the Type 153A - drawn up around 1936.

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It was offered to the same spec as Whirlwind. IIRC, I've got the bits to do one in 72nd, starting with - ironically - a Whirlwind fuselage and a Fairey Battle wing.
 
Wasn’t this another of the variou aircraft designs that was let down by the engine not living up to the hype? Or am I thinking of another aircraft. (Or should I say a LOT of other aircraft as the engine petting the aircraft design now was sadly a common occurrence.
The XP-50 suffered the explosion of one of it's turbochargers and made an emergency landing.
Granted, there was a lot of aircraft where the engine choice was much more of a damnation than a blessing.
 
I remember that "doodle" by Just Leo. As I recall, Leo was not a fan of the Hyper-engine projects (in hindsight, who was???), but a conventional and compact Continental IV-12 might have had possibilities. *edit* I'm not sure what engine I was thinking of, as the Continental was pretty much built along a pre-determined path. A Packard Inverted V maybe?
Before the Continental XI-1430 IV 12 , Continental built the O-1430 flat 12 and the american company invested its own money in the development of the engines, something similar to what Fairey was doing in Britain, so have both companies share the development of the flat 12 into a H24 like the Fairey Monarch displacing 46 L but earlier and use it to power an earlier Fairey Barracuda attack /torpedo bomber and a single seat Boulton Paul Defiant for the Royal Navy ( I known that the navy preferred a two seater but a single seat naval fighter whit the H24 would have the range and power to effectively defend the Fleet) whit the bonus that Fairey would make it whit left and right 12-cylinders engine sections operated independently allowing half the engine to be shutdown to extend range or loiter time.
In the United States, the Continental Company sourced the H24 to Vought that used the engine in the Vought Sea Wolf torpedo bomber and in the first prototypes of the future Vought F4U Corsair fighter.
Fairey had developed a 25 L V12 engine, the Fairey Prince, and the partnership with Continental allowed both companies to use the cylinders developed to power the H 12 O-1430 and invest in a invert V12 to power a new generation of fighters.
In UK, Fairey used the engine to power the new Fairey Fantome ( a improved Renard R36 light fighter, developed after Fairey bought the patent from Renard) and supplied the new engine to Martin Baker that used it in the new Martin Baker MB 3 fighter that use a two stage supercharger and both airplanes proved fundamental to the british success in the Battle of Britain and in the US , the Continental turbocharged version powered Grumman XP-50 replaced the Lockheed P-38 in the fighter role but an enlarged version of the P-38, the P-48 ( similar to the XP-58) using the H24 Continental XH-2860 was used as a low level attack and rocket airplane.
Curtiss feeling that the P-40 wasn't going to cut it, mated an improved airframe whit the Continental IV-12 and the new fighter ( something like the P-40P) would become a dangerous opponent for the Zeros.
 
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Wasn’t this another of the variou aircraft designs that was let down by the engine not living up to the hype? Or am I thinking of another aircraft. (Or should I say a LOT of other aircraft as the engine petting the aircraft design now was sadly a common occurrence.
The actual XP-50 used two Wright R-1820s. I think the Pratt and Whitney R-1830 would have been a better choice. However both were good engines used in thousands of airplanes from C-47s to F4F Wildcats and many others. The engines weren't the problem preventing the XP-50 from being put into production and service.
 
We'd want from the P-50 to do much better than the P-40, an aircraft that was pretty well matched against the Japanese fighters (I'd say it was better than the main fighter IJA had, the Ki-43).
If it can do 400 mph at 25000, it should've been very useful against Luftwaffe, too. Your idea of turbocharged R-1830 is IMO better than the original turboed R-1820.
Someone will need to push the drop tank idea through the collective throats of the USAAF brass, though.

P-40 was essential for the USAAF and LL needs in 1942, so that is a hard sell.
Better to have Bell making it - yes, Soviets liked the P-39, but they don't get to vote here. Vultee perhaps Fisher body factory - avoids the P-75 money pit? The Curtiss-Wright factory at St.Louis (where the CW 21 was produced, among other aircraft) is a contender, too. How much the Martin Maryland and Baltimore are actually worth in the grand scheme of things in 1942?
Going by the timing of my OP that makes sense. Too bad. The Desert Air Force would have been better served by P-50s instead of P-40s. But that would have required going into mass production in late 1940 then and that's really heading into Skippy Land.

If Martin is building the P-50 would they still be producing the B-26 Marauder? At a different plant? Looks like Bell it is then. Maybe the Russians might like the P-50.
 
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