The Greeks

[Arkenfolm]

Switzerland is named after Schwyz, one of the Cantons. China could be seen as another example where the whole gets the name of a part.

Neither of which are comparable to Byzantium and Greece.

There wasn't an existence of Switzerland in reality or even a concept before Schywz was one of the founders of Switzerland. And China is actually called Zhongguo, "Center Country".

Compare that to a modern Byzantium, where it either looks back to the entirely clear concept of a Hellenic world (thus Hellas, i.e. Greece in English) or looks back to its own Roman heritage (thus Romania). And it has no real reason to stop calling itself Romania, which it always did. Who will complain? Some Germans who call themselves Holy, Roman, and an Empire? Some Vlach peasants who call themselves Romanian too? Some Persianized Turkic Muslims who call themselves Rum?

 

[Infinity]

That's just a part of Greece and always was since Antiquity. It's like calling all British people Kentish or something.

I read two different copies of the Iliad. One used the term Achaean. The other used the term Greek instead. As far as I can tell, the two words are synonyms.

Hellene is the other possibility.

Since the Iliad is the reason for the word Hellene, I see no reason why the term Achaean wouldn't serve the same purpose. After all, it was the "bronze clad Achaeans," which inspired the Macedonians and Greeks to conquer their ancient eastern rivals.

 

[Flavius Phocas]

And it has no real reason to stop calling itself Romania, which it always did. Who will complain? Some Germans who call themselves Holy, Roman, and an Empire? Some Vlach peasants who call themselves Romanian too? Some Persianized Turkic Muslims who call themselves Rum?

I mean, as said depending on the POD I could see them eventually switching from Rome to Hellas by themselves. During the Palaiologos Dynasty several scholars tried to promote the rebirth of the Hellenic identity over the Roman one. Some Italians had also tried to convince Constantine XI to crown himself "Emperor of the Greeks" instead of "Emperor of the Romans", which he declined. However Constantine seems to have atleast partially taken this to heart as in many of his speeches he refers to his people as "Greeks and Romans".

It does appear that after the disaster that was the 4th Crusade and partitioning of the Empire, a revival of Hellenic identity took place. The Roman Empire, now largely reduced to it's Greek speaking territories and without it's multi ethnic nature was beginning to reorient it's culture more towards classical Hellas.

If the POD is after 1204, them calling themselves Hellenes/Greeks is not too unlikely IMO.

 

[catalfalque]

I read two different copies of the Iliad. One used the term Achaean. The other used the term Greek instead. As far as I can tell, the two words are synonyms.

Achaivoi? In later Greece, after the Dorians etc, some states harked back to an Achaean heritage. It was clearly seen by then as an ancestral element of modern (ie classical) Greece

Since the Iliad is the reason for the word Hellene, I see no reason why the term Achaean wouldn't serve the same purpose. After all, it was the "bronze clad Achaeans," which inspired the Macedonians and Greeks to conquer their ancient eastern rivals.

England referred to (sic) Byzantium as the Kingdom of the Greeks. There is no reason to assume they would change this.

After all, look at names for modern Germany - after Germania in English/Latin, after the Alemanni in French, and in German it just means "people"

 

[Avalon]

So far I have, Hellene, Greek, Romanian, Achaean and Rhomanian as possibilities. You guys are a really big help. Thanks.

 

[Indicus]

Indeed. I suspect that if Greece had remained Ottoman, Roman would be the predominant descriptor of ethnic identity due to Ottoman support. After all, "Greek" would be associated with western aided rebellion/ethnic separatism.

It would be the predominant self-descriptor, but not the one used by other groups, who would simply call them Greeks.

 

[Byzantion]

We call the Germans Germans in English, rather than Deutsch.

Alemans

 

[SlyDessertFox]

We call the Germans Germans in English, rather than Deutsch.

Right. They would call themselves Rhomainoi (or whatever the Greek term is, I forget). In English we would call them Romans.

 

[catalfalque]

But we wouldn't. If we have spent centuries calling them Greek, then we wouldn't change. That's what I meant by post up-thread - regardless of the Germans calling themselves "Deutcsch" the British use the Latin name for the area, the French use a name derived from one specific people of the area.

 

[Escape Zeppelin]

Historian J.B. Bury had this to say: "to the West during all the Middle Ages, the Empire was the Greek Empire, just as the Orthodox Church was the Greek Church. The Empire and the Church were each alike called Greek to distinguish them from the Empire and Church of the West."

However, there are numerous examples of the Byzantine Empire being referred to as Romania:

Fulcher de Chartres, a Latin chronicler of the First Crusade (AD 1095-1099), refers to the Byzantine Empire by the term Romania, as in the following exhortation given by Pope Urban II:
"For, as most of you have been told, the Turks, a race of Persians, who have penetrated within the boundaries of Romania even to the Mediterranean to that point which they call the Arm of Saint George..."

Count Stephen of Blois, another chronicler of the First Crusade from his letters to his wife Adele, also refers to the Byzantine Empire as Romania:
"You have certainly heard that after the capture of the city of Nicaea we fought a great battle with the Turks and by God's aid conquered them. Next we conquered for the Lord all [of] Romania"

Honestly it seems like a bit of a tossup and both would probably be used widely. As someone above noted you'd probably get a Persia/Iran situation where they're called Persian by foreigners but Iranian by themselves until they get tired of it and insist everybody use the correct name.

 

[betrayor]

Even now in songs and in texts the word' romios 'is used in greece as a synonym to greek, it is not widely used anymore, but it is a valid word.

 

[Arkenfolm]

Honestly it seems like a bit of a tossup and both would probably be used widely. As someone above noted you'd probably get a Persia/Iran situation where they're called Persian by foreigners but Iranian by themselves until they get tired of it and insist everybody use the correct name.

Which would leave Hellas and related words as poetic terms for the Greeks, no doubt, and I guess the exonym Greece in the same position as Persian is now in regards to Iranian. Or maybe not quite, since the Persian/Iranian distinction has acquired political overtones since the Shah was overthrown.

 

[Lampiao]

However, there are numerous examples of the Byzantine Empire being referred to as Romania:

Fulcher de Chartres, a Latin chronicler of the First Crusade (AD 1095-1099), refers to the Byzantine Empire by the term Romania, as in the following exhortation given by Pope Urban II:
"For, as most of you have been told, the Turks, a race of Persians, who have penetrated within the boundaries of Romania even to the Mediterranean to that point which they call the Arm of Saint George..."

Count Stephen of Blois, another chronicler of the First Crusade from his letters to his wife Adele, also refers to the Byzantine Empire as Romania:
"You have certainly heard that after the capture of the city of Nicaea we fought a great battle with the Turks and by God's aid conquered them. Next we conquered for the Lord all [of] Romania".

These are not good examples and not very representative, these people lived in the Levant and most probably knew Greek and some Arabic.

 

[123456789blaaa]

These are not good examples and not very representative, these people lived in the Levant and most probably knew Greek and some Arabic.

So? Why does that make them not good examples?

 

[Indicus]

So? Why does that make them not good examples?

I don't really know, but it may have something to do with how the Muslim world called the Byzantines and the Ottomans "Rumi", literally meaning "Roman".

That said, I don't think that's applicable, as those people are both Christians. Also, most notable Christians spoke Greek.

 

[Vasilas]

Heh, if we are looking for examples of Latins using Romania-one need not go much further than Imperium Romaniae (Latin Empire post 1204 itself) itself. Sure, made up of people literally on those lands, but a bit telling nonetheless. And before you say this was politics to keep the local population on the side-you have waged this ridiculously brutal war against these people, imposed the Latin Church on them, and your top concern is to call yourself Roman so that people don't rebel/defect to the Orthodox successor states? Doesn't quite seem plausible that the demonym mattered over religion-especially since Orthodoxy was one of the pillars of being Roman by this period.

Calling it Romania or not was likely always a matter of convenience. The Latin Emperor of course wanted it as it elevated his position to something one could believe was comparable to the HR Emperor-which Emperor of Constantinople would not quite do. The heretical enemy on the other hand did not quite deserve the name etc etc.

The Persia/Iran situation is interesting, but I am not sure if it is quite comparable-since Persians and Iranians were never viewed as distinct in the western psyche, while people seem to have a rather sharp dividing line between Greeks and Romans ( I blame pop history lessons but w/e). The circumstances however matter quite a bit, if we have a situation with the Emperor remaining the preeminent Mediterranean power of Christendom, there would likely be no 4th Crusade and subsequent rise of "Greek nationalism". Consequently, Greek would likely be viewed as an insult, versus the case OTL-when it was slowly being accepted as a substitute (as we can see from Theodore II Laskaris etc). So the latter case could lead to a situation like Germany/Japan/China where the demonym is distinct from the commonly used name elsewhere.

On the other hand, a surviving powerful Empire which dislikes being called Greek could probably normalize 'Romanian/Rhomanion' to an extent. Especially if they get into a Franco-Ottoman style relationship with some European powers (perhaps allies of Alt-Protestants against Papal supremacy/Catholics) who will start calling them Romans or a variant in their own self interest, eventually normalizing the term. And if one of the allies build a global Empire with the same reach as Albion OTL, then the job is fairly done.

 

[Green Painting]

In Europe? Probably either Greek (or some variant thereof) or something like Romanian.

In the Middle East and the wider Islamic world, including India and Southeast Asia, everyone would still say Rumi, "Roman."

In China you'll have a Mongol-based name, just like the Chinese called the Ottomans the Khungghar empire after the Mongol name for them.

Fulin, I think it's a corruption of "Rum".
Or Daqin.

 

[Intransigent Southerner]

Fulin, I think it's a corruption of "Rum".

That name was gone after the Tang. In the Ming it was Loumi (now used to refer to the Ottomans), but it got superseded by the Mongol word Khunggar.

 

[Green Painting]

That name was gone after the Tang. In the Ming it was Loumi (now used to refer to the Ottomans), but it got superseded by the Mongol word Khunggar.

We can't trust the Ming on place names. They called the Spaniards in the Philippines "Luzon", and Spain itself "Greater Luzon".

 

[Lampiao]

So? Why does that make them not good examples?

Given their background, it can be interpreted as a Greek calque (or something between a calque and a direct loan). In other words, The way they write/speak may get "infected" by the other languages they know.