Bravo! Very well reseached, loved the easter eggs. Is there going to be a follow up?
The Franco-Japanese war
- Thread starter sharlin
- Start date
Great Stuff.
Based on the damage to the IJN, I thought they got more out of the peace treaty than they deserved. Maybe they bluffed the French into believing they could continue the fight longer.
Based on the damage to the IJN, I thought they got more out of the peace treaty than they deserved. Maybe they bluffed the French into believing they could continue the fight longer.
Hmm, sounds like it would have been more or less a Pyrrhic victory for the Japanese had the French not run out of political will to continue the fight and/or forces they could send to the region.
And IA that the Japanese made out better than they really deserved to out of the peace treaty given how much of a close thing the war was, especially if it was the Russians acting as mediators in the negotiations.
Poor Vietnamese, getting shafted by the Japanese after thinking they were coming to liberate them from French domination only to, on top of being left to the French, end up having a couple Japanese boots added to the weight on their necks. If in the future, someone got pissed off at the French and/or the Japanese but not quite enough to start a war, there could be some interesting times to be had there in the ancient Chinese sense of the word.
Speaking of interesting times, sounds like the French could be in for some of their own due to domestic political instability & what sounds like the earliest rumblings of a potential military coup plot which would overthrow the 3rd Republic & replace it with some sort of perhaps proto-fascist state dressed up in the trappings of one of the strains of French conservative thinking.
Great TL, & hope you do more in its future, such as something about TTL's World Wars like that little vignette that had a G3 going into action alongside the Bismarck.
And IA that the Japanese made out better than they really deserved to out of the peace treaty given how much of a close thing the war was, especially if it was the Russians acting as mediators in the negotiations.
Poor Vietnamese, getting shafted by the Japanese after thinking they were coming to liberate them from French domination only to, on top of being left to the French, end up having a couple Japanese boots added to the weight on their necks. If in the future, someone got pissed off at the French and/or the Japanese but not quite enough to start a war, there could be some interesting times to be had there in the ancient Chinese sense of the word.
Speaking of interesting times, sounds like the French could be in for some of their own due to domestic political instability & what sounds like the earliest rumblings of a potential military coup plot which would overthrow the 3rd Republic & replace it with some sort of perhaps proto-fascist state dressed up in the trappings of one of the strains of French conservative thinking.
Great TL, & hope you do more in its future, such as something about TTL's World Wars like that little vignette that had a G3 going into action alongside the Bismarck.
sharlin
Banned
Basically the Japanese got what they wanted, more bases along a major coastline and access to trade, the war was never anything more than a land grab disguised as 'helping our asian brothers', Siam was just a tool of convinience.
In reality there was little the French could send, their fleet IRL and ITTL was not that big in terms of battleships and they have lost a grand total of seven in this war thus far, losses that can not be sustained, the Japanese lost three which in proportion to their fleet is also too many, as well as four armoured cruisers.
The Japanese did get the most out of the treaty, three bases in China including basically the French Hong Kong. The French still control Vietnam although it is seething with unrest and Cambodia broke away.
As for france and the future, we'll see what the future brings, I do plan on continuing this timeline, just not yet. Works a bugger due to being very busy at the mo and it will slow us down some.
In reality there was little the French could send, their fleet IRL and ITTL was not that big in terms of battleships and they have lost a grand total of seven in this war thus far, losses that can not be sustained, the Japanese lost three which in proportion to their fleet is also too many, as well as four armoured cruisers.
The Japanese did get the most out of the treaty, three bases in China including basically the French Hong Kong. The French still control Vietnam although it is seething with unrest and Cambodia broke away.
As for france and the future, we'll see what the future brings, I do plan on continuing this timeline, just not yet. Works a bugger due to being very busy at the mo and it will slow us down some.
sharlin
Banned
Post Battle and postscript.
Reforming his fleet into a steaming order letting the crews get to work repairing damage, shoring up bulkheads and fighting fires. Not one of the Japanese capital ships was without wounds, some more serious than others. The equally important task of rescuing survivors from the sea was undertaken by destroyers and what intact whaleboats were available. Many ships had been sunk and one, the French Hoche was still foundering, the old ship struggling before finally slipping beneath the waves.
Fortunately for the survivors the seas were calm, warm and there was lots of floating debris and the threat of sharks was more imagined than real. Still there were many men in the water and only so many boats to rescue them.
A grand total of six hundred and thirty three sailors, both French and Japanese were pulled from the water, some of the ships had sunk so quickly that there simply was not enough time to get the men off. Amongst the survivors was a young Midshipman called Takano, who would marry into a well to do family and change his surname to Yamamoto in two years time, as well as the Captain of the D'Estrees and a badly wounded Rear Admiral Maras formerly of the Marceau, the Admiral would unfortunately die of his injuries three days later.
Post war the French survivors were returned to France on board a German merchant ship, the prisoners were well treated whilst some became minor celebrities amongst the Japanese Naval Officer Corps.
Admiral Togo became a national hero for and an almost revered figure amongst Naval Officers the world over. The battle was dissected at every possible level by Military Colleges, experts and anyone with an opinion as well as the fighting on land.
The Press admired the Japanese skill but also admired the French pluck and daring and the feared cull of senior Officers in the Far East did not happen.
In 1907 the now Contre-Amiral (Rear Admiral) Domercq visited Brest to launch the brand new D'Estrees reborn as a 12000 tonne armoured cruiser of the Leon Gambetta Class. The Admiral along with many of the veterans of the war had been pushing for more military spending to recuperate the losses and this movement was gaining ground despite the Government trying to block it. Launching a new D'Estrees was seen as act of appeasement to the military but they did not see it as enough.
The War had highlighted many deficiencies in the French military and the more right wing newspapers were still calling for revenge which the public echoed.
In England the construction of the Dreadnought and Devastation was barely delayed by information from the Far East, alterations were made where possible weaknesses were detected . The First Lord, thrilled at the money he could spend as well as the political power of his post ordered a third class of new warships to join the Dreadnought and Invincible as well as their sisters on the slips. The new Glorious class ship was designed to be a replacement for the slower armoured cruisers still in service whilst supplementing the new Fast Armoured Cruisers (later called Battlecruisers) of the Invincible Class. The Class was initial called Light battlecruisers in the press, then Colonial Battlecruisers and finally the navy decided upon Heavy Cruiser for their designation.
In June 1907 the newly elected French Government fell and the members of the main parties could not agree on who would lead them or how they would try and win votes. The indecision lasted two months whilst the value of the Franc fell and the country's wealth seemed to be bleeding away whilst Socialist agitators and even Royalists began to see support and popularity rise. This ended on Bastille Day when General Joseph Joffre, accompanied by the two most Senior French Admirals, including the First Lord, three senior Generals and a dozen Colonels who in their own words 'spoke for France and her colonies' walked into the French Parliament and took power 'until order could be restored'.
This military coup was essentially bloodless, the Police had not been properly paid in a month as had most of the armed forces whilst the civilian population had turned against 'the buffoons in Paris' and even took to calling Joffre the new Napoleon.
In Europe the surprise change of government worried the Governments of England and Germany who both looked to their respective borders with the Royal Navy reinforcing the Channel fleet and Germany looking into improving its fortifications along the border.
When the elections came the French people for the most part decided to keep the military in control. They had got the police back to work, cracked down on 'anarchists' and other 'reactionaries' as well as promising to make France strong and proud once more. After the shame of their defeat to the 'yellow peril' and the 'shameful treaty' they endured in Moscow, the French voted with their hearts. It was not a military dictatorship, more a pseudo military democracy. Officers held all important positions within government but were assisted by civilians in their roles.
Promising to get the country working once more they carried through with the building of more steel and iron foundries, construction of more mines as well as exploring the resources of the colonies for future use. Military spending increased whilst new ships were laid down with the lessons of the war with Japan and the British developments taken fully to heart.
Riding the wave of nationalism and militarism the new Government began speaking loudly about wronging the rights done to France whilst pursuing closer relations with Italy and Russia working to form a defensive alliance against 'outside threats'.
The growing strength of France alarmed the Germans and Austro-Hungarian Empire who found themselves all but surrounded in Europe whilst Belgium was leaning heavily towards the French. The military strength of Russia, Italy and a rearming France dwarfed the German/Austro-Hungarian's available strength. In the German Parliament the bill to build more warships was killed in the Reichstag much to the anger of the Kaiser in the light of the growing threat on the ground along Germany's borders and the surface fleet was assumed to be strong enough to defend the German coastline as well as defeat any enemy on the high seas.
To calm the Kaiser who still wanted his fleet, the planning of what would become the Nassau class Dreadnought was begun. The Kaiser also swallowed his pride and bite his tongue, asking his diplomats to begin talks with the English regarding an alliance. One which the British Government was all too willing to enter into. German ministers had to keep the Kaiser from saying anything inappropriate during the negotiations conducted at his behalf whilst he 'holidayed' in the Norwegian Fjords aboard the Royal Yacht and were for the most part, successful, although his more bombastic statements about French threats to Germany's borders were eagerly lapped up by the press at home and abroad.
In March of 1909 the Triple Alliance was declared in Paris between France, Italy and Russia whilst at the Treaty of Greenwich in 1910 the so called Three Empires Alliance of England, Germany and Austro-Hungary was signed by the King, Kaiser and Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria.
Tension rose in Europe from 1910 to 1916 with both alliances working to improve and enlarge their militaries whilst over the Atlantic the American's watched but remained impartial and staunchly isolationist from any European 'entanglements', the Americans eyes fixed firmly on Japan, concerned about the growing strength of the Japanese military, reports of brutal actions on Vietnam and China by Japanese troops and concerned about the security of the Phillipines as well as other US holdings.
The war when it came in the summer of 1916 was seen as inevitable by all involved, even welcomed by some, mainly those who did not know the horrors of modern warfare as many young men would soon discover.
Now I know I'm probably going to get yelled at by people who know a lot more about the politics of the time (which is pritty much everyone I guess) but I hope this isn't too implausable, I was hinting at it sections of the story beforehand, the growing rift between England and France as well as the UK and Germany getting closer together so it would not seem like a AND THEN SUDDENLY... moment, hope its alright. Any feedback is good!
Reforming his fleet into a steaming order letting the crews get to work repairing damage, shoring up bulkheads and fighting fires. Not one of the Japanese capital ships was without wounds, some more serious than others. The equally important task of rescuing survivors from the sea was undertaken by destroyers and what intact whaleboats were available. Many ships had been sunk and one, the French Hoche was still foundering, the old ship struggling before finally slipping beneath the waves.
Fortunately for the survivors the seas were calm, warm and there was lots of floating debris and the threat of sharks was more imagined than real. Still there were many men in the water and only so many boats to rescue them.
A grand total of six hundred and thirty three sailors, both French and Japanese were pulled from the water, some of the ships had sunk so quickly that there simply was not enough time to get the men off. Amongst the survivors was a young Midshipman called Takano, who would marry into a well to do family and change his surname to Yamamoto in two years time, as well as the Captain of the D'Estrees and a badly wounded Rear Admiral Maras formerly of the Marceau, the Admiral would unfortunately die of his injuries three days later.
Post war the French survivors were returned to France on board a German merchant ship, the prisoners were well treated whilst some became minor celebrities amongst the Japanese Naval Officer Corps.
Admiral Togo became a national hero for and an almost revered figure amongst Naval Officers the world over. The battle was dissected at every possible level by Military Colleges, experts and anyone with an opinion as well as the fighting on land.
The Press admired the Japanese skill but also admired the French pluck and daring and the feared cull of senior Officers in the Far East did not happen.
In 1907 the now Contre-Amiral (Rear Admiral) Domercq visited Brest to launch the brand new D'Estrees reborn as a 12000 tonne armoured cruiser of the Leon Gambetta Class. The Admiral along with many of the veterans of the war had been pushing for more military spending to recuperate the losses and this movement was gaining ground despite the Government trying to block it. Launching a new D'Estrees was seen as act of appeasement to the military but they did not see it as enough.
The War had highlighted many deficiencies in the French military and the more right wing newspapers were still calling for revenge which the public echoed.
In England the construction of the Dreadnought and Devastation was barely delayed by information from the Far East, alterations were made where possible weaknesses were detected . The First Lord, thrilled at the money he could spend as well as the political power of his post ordered a third class of new warships to join the Dreadnought and Invincible as well as their sisters on the slips. The new Glorious class ship was designed to be a replacement for the slower armoured cruisers still in service whilst supplementing the new Fast Armoured Cruisers (later called Battlecruisers) of the Invincible Class. The Class was initial called Light battlecruisers in the press, then Colonial Battlecruisers and finally the navy decided upon Heavy Cruiser for their designation.
In June 1907 the newly elected French Government fell and the members of the main parties could not agree on who would lead them or how they would try and win votes. The indecision lasted two months whilst the value of the Franc fell and the country's wealth seemed to be bleeding away whilst Socialist agitators and even Royalists began to see support and popularity rise. This ended on Bastille Day when General Joseph Joffre, accompanied by the two most Senior French Admirals, including the First Lord, three senior Generals and a dozen Colonels who in their own words 'spoke for France and her colonies' walked into the French Parliament and took power 'until order could be restored'.
This military coup was essentially bloodless, the Police had not been properly paid in a month as had most of the armed forces whilst the civilian population had turned against 'the buffoons in Paris' and even took to calling Joffre the new Napoleon.
In Europe the surprise change of government worried the Governments of England and Germany who both looked to their respective borders with the Royal Navy reinforcing the Channel fleet and Germany looking into improving its fortifications along the border.
When the elections came the French people for the most part decided to keep the military in control. They had got the police back to work, cracked down on 'anarchists' and other 'reactionaries' as well as promising to make France strong and proud once more. After the shame of their defeat to the 'yellow peril' and the 'shameful treaty' they endured in Moscow, the French voted with their hearts. It was not a military dictatorship, more a pseudo military democracy. Officers held all important positions within government but were assisted by civilians in their roles.
Promising to get the country working once more they carried through with the building of more steel and iron foundries, construction of more mines as well as exploring the resources of the colonies for future use. Military spending increased whilst new ships were laid down with the lessons of the war with Japan and the British developments taken fully to heart.
Riding the wave of nationalism and militarism the new Government began speaking loudly about wronging the rights done to France whilst pursuing closer relations with Italy and Russia working to form a defensive alliance against 'outside threats'.
The growing strength of France alarmed the Germans and Austro-Hungarian Empire who found themselves all but surrounded in Europe whilst Belgium was leaning heavily towards the French. The military strength of Russia, Italy and a rearming France dwarfed the German/Austro-Hungarian's available strength. In the German Parliament the bill to build more warships was killed in the Reichstag much to the anger of the Kaiser in the light of the growing threat on the ground along Germany's borders and the surface fleet was assumed to be strong enough to defend the German coastline as well as defeat any enemy on the high seas.
To calm the Kaiser who still wanted his fleet, the planning of what would become the Nassau class Dreadnought was begun. The Kaiser also swallowed his pride and bite his tongue, asking his diplomats to begin talks with the English regarding an alliance. One which the British Government was all too willing to enter into. German ministers had to keep the Kaiser from saying anything inappropriate during the negotiations conducted at his behalf whilst he 'holidayed' in the Norwegian Fjords aboard the Royal Yacht and were for the most part, successful, although his more bombastic statements about French threats to Germany's borders were eagerly lapped up by the press at home and abroad.
In March of 1909 the Triple Alliance was declared in Paris between France, Italy and Russia whilst at the Treaty of Greenwich in 1910 the so called Three Empires Alliance of England, Germany and Austro-Hungary was signed by the King, Kaiser and Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria.
Tension rose in Europe from 1910 to 1916 with both alliances working to improve and enlarge their militaries whilst over the Atlantic the American's watched but remained impartial and staunchly isolationist from any European 'entanglements', the Americans eyes fixed firmly on Japan, concerned about the growing strength of the Japanese military, reports of brutal actions on Vietnam and China by Japanese troops and concerned about the security of the Phillipines as well as other US holdings.
The war when it came in the summer of 1916 was seen as inevitable by all involved, even welcomed by some, mainly those who did not know the horrors of modern warfare as many young men would soon discover.
Now I know I'm probably going to get yelled at by people who know a lot more about the politics of the time (which is pritty much everyone I guess) but I hope this isn't too implausable, I was hinting at it sections of the story beforehand, the growing rift between England and France as well as the UK and Germany getting closer together so it would not seem like a AND THEN SUDDENLY... moment, hope its alright. Any feedback is good!
Ah so this is the German-British alliance you've been alluding to, not to mention explaining that vision of the shape of things to come.
sharlin
Banned
Indeed, the hints were there for those who read it 
Its funny, I had the idea of this story in my head back in 2001/2002 when I was in Cyprus with the British army on the red line doing a 6 month UN stint. The idea never really went away but I never had a chance to put it onto paper and thought it would not be read and had no idea where to put it. Until I found this site
Its funny, I had the idea of this story in my head back in 2001/2002 when I was in Cyprus with the British army on the red line doing a 6 month UN stint. The idea never really went away but I never had a chance to put it onto paper and thought it would not be read and had no idea where to put it. Until I found this site 
British and Germans are to be the undisputed masters in the North Sea, the Channel. We would have a landing in Normandy instead of Gallipoli.
In the Atlantic ocean, I see an important activity of the Corsairs and submarines, much more important than what the Germans did IOTL.
The French Antilles should fall quickly and in Guiana, the French could hide in the hinterland.
What I greatly expect is the Mediterranean theatre. It's surely the only theatre where the combined French and Italian navies have a chance to defeat the Royal Navy.
It makes me wondering about the Italo-Turkish War of 1911-1912. Did it happen ITTL?
In the Atlantic ocean, I see an important activity of the Corsairs and submarines, much more important than what the Germans did IOTL.
The French Antilles should fall quickly and in Guiana, the French could hide in the hinterland.
What I greatly expect is the Mediterranean theatre. It's surely the only theatre where the combined French and Italian navies have a chance to defeat the Royal Navy.
It makes me wondering about the Italo-Turkish War of 1911-1912. Did it happen ITTL?
If there's an Anglo-German Alliance in the coming world war I would guess that Italy will stick to the Germans and Austrians. With no German naval threat I would guess that the Royal Navy would feel free to deploy large parts of their fleet to the Med and join with the Austro-Hungarian navy.
The problem of the Italo-Turkish war is whether the Anglo Germans want to prop up the Ottomans and feel strong enough to 'talk' to the Italians and maybe offer them Tunisia and French Somaliland in a future European war in exchange for leaving the Turks alone.
The problem of the Italo-Turkish war is whether the Anglo Germans want to prop up the Ottomans and feel strong enough to 'talk' to the Italians and maybe offer them Tunisia and French Somaliland in a future European war in exchange for leaving the Turks alone.
That strikes me as entirely possible.
Larger armed forces budgets in France and Italy would alarm both Germany and Austria-Hungary. The "weakness" of Russia in OTL wasn´t that well understood. And without the Russian-Japanese war of OTL I suspect the Russian military reforms won´t happen or will happen slower here.
So Russia won´t be as strong as it looks from the outside. But taken together, the threat of France, Russia and Italy allied will certainly result in actions.
(Definitely a larger German army. That´s the easy part because Germany didn´t draft every eligible young man. I seem to remember only 50-60%? And had only a 2 year draft compared to 3 years in France.)
Belgium leaning towards France in the 1900s is the reality in OTL too. That changed slowly after 1910 when alarmed French diplomats in Belgium noticed closer Belgian-German relations. And more and more German influence in Brussels.
I suspect the same would happen here too especially with an Anglo-German alliance. So Belgium will try to stay neutral in a war.
Strikes me as realistic too.
British support for the Japanese here resulted in cooler relations with France. Now a France heavily influenced by the military and furiously re-arming will be seen as a threat again. Russia was always seen as a potential threat. And adding Italy to it threatens the British position in the Mediterranean.
The British won´t be happy about that.
They probably would follow long-standing policies by siding with the weaker alliance, seen here as Germany / Austria-Hungary.
(Especially with Germany limiting its naval programs.)
The Triple Alliance will lose.
Larger German army and smaller German navy coupled with more fortifications along the French-German border translates into more German troops in the East.
And while the Russian army in this TL 1916 will be better equipped than in OTL 1914, they probably missed some of the military reforms introduced in OTL after the lost Russian-Japanese war.
Add in open sea lanes for German trade during the war (no hunger winters) and I think they can hold the line.
Of course Conrad von Hötzendorf as the Chief of the Austrian-Hungarian general staff as in OTL might be able to "complicate" things.
France and Italy though will have a problem.
Coal.
In our TL in 1913 Italy imported roughly 11 million tons of coal. 10 million from the British isles. 1 million from the German Ruhr region via Amsterdam. All transported by ship. And Italy is totally dependent on those imports.
France produced only around 36 million tons of coal in 1905. Now subtract 11 million to support their ally Italy during a war.
Even if neutral Belgium sells them most of their yearly production of 22 million tons, France quite likely won´t have enough coal for iron and steel production in a longer war. They would need imports from the USA. I can´t quite see the Royal Navy agreeing to this?
Neither for France or for Italy?
As a comparison the United Kingdom (236) and Germany (121) together mined around 357 million tons of coal in 1905. Coal back then was an indicator for industrial might. Coal coupled with access to iron translated into steel. And steel was an indicator for military might. As in railways, ships, guns and rifles.
The Triple Alliance is totally outclassed here.
There are also the naval problems for the Triple Alliance.
The smaller German navy probably is still enough to contain the Russian Baltic fleet. Which would leave the Royal Navy free to deal with the French and Italian navies. And with the Italian navy still needing to keep one eye on the Austrian-Hungarian navy.
The French need to keep the sea lane open to their North African colonies. Colonial soldiers and supplies. So they either station a large part of their navy in Toulon / Mediterranean or risk losing that connection. The problems is that this solution also allows the Royal Navy to concentrate a large fleet in the Mediterranean?
I don´t envy France and Italy. Unless the Triple Alliance wins very, very fast (surprise attack of France through neutral Belgium?) they will lose in the end.