The Fire Never Dies Pop Culture Collaborative Thread

I wonder how the first American Civil War would be perceived in the ASU's pop culture. On the one hand I could see it as being seen as a proto-revolution or an incomplete revolution with the anti-racist nature of the ASU propping it up as the first fight against the forces of reactionary racism. On the other hand, it could also be seen as the rich fat cats sending poor workers to die fighting a war against what should've been ended after the US gained independence. I could also see figures like Newton knight becoming just as prominent as people like Grant and Sherman. One thing's for sure, the Lost Cause probably won't factor into these movies about the first civil war given its association with Woodrow Wilson and the KKK.
 
Last edited:
I wonder how the first American Civil War would be perceived in the ASU's pop culture. On the one hand I could see it as being seen as a proto-revolution or an incomplete revolution with the anti-racist nature of the ASU propping it up as the first fight against the forces of reactionary racism. On the other hand, it could also be seen as the rich fat cats sending poor workers to die fighting a war against what should've been ended after the US gained independence. I could also see figures like Newton knight becoming just as prominent as people like Grant and Sherman. One thing's for sure, the Lost Cause probably won't factor into these movies about the first civil war given its association with Woodrow Wilson and the KKK.
I could see it being treated as a finishing of the bourgeoisie revolution against the nobility. To make a complicated point very simplistic a lot of Marxists argue that before there can be a worker's revolution there must be a bourgeoisie revolution where the capitalists overthrow old aristocrats in order to create capitalism. The first American Revolution freed the North but the South was still a land of rich gentry lording over serfs and slaves. The First American Civil War broke the power of these landowners and lead to the conditions for the Worker's Revolution.

Now, this isn't totally the case, but it'd be easy to spin the history a bit to fit into most socialist thinking. Though the two-revolution theory is considered questionable by many non-Marxist socialists.
 
And quite a lot of Marxists!

I imagine it would be progressive but still fundamentally a series of events dominated by capitalists. I could see a lot of time going into pointing out how the first Klan planted the seeds for the second.
 
And quite a lot of Marxists!

I imagine it would be progressive but still fundamentally a series of events dominated by capitalists. I could see a lot of time going into pointing out how the first Klan planted the seeds for the second.
You could also make an argument that a lot of time will also be put into pointing out how the Confederacy planted the seeds for the first klan considering the fact its founder was a confederate general.
 
Someone's probably said this before, but what about Walt Disney? How does his career change?
He founds Fantasia Animation Studios (TTL's Disney Corporation) and makes largely the same movies he did in his lifetime. He may also dabble in politics (although he's never getting close to the Premiership) with a platform based on his original vision for Epcot.
 
There's still extraterrestrial/extradimensionsal/ supernatural threats you can have heroes deal with. Its more science fiction/fantasy than the typical crime stories of the likes of batman, but was and are still common adversaries of superheroes

What could work is to have the Court of Owls be the villains but also have "Batman" be a major collective effort rather than just Bruce Wayne. Instead of Bruce being born rich he could have been a son of a maid who worked for the Waynes and was close to them before they were killed by a hitman hired by the uber-rich for their support of labor rights, he could then be a former soldier of the revolution who learned how to fight and always wanted to be a detective, has Alfred be the former butler for a wealthy Wayne family who has access to their estate and was an actor before becoming a butler and has Lucius Fox be a brilliant inventor who builds all of Bruce's gear. Instead of a one-man show they exist as a big team effort, with new characters being added in all the time.

The big issue with Superheroes in general is that a big concept of socialism is that crime is a result of inequality in class. A post-revolutionary America it would be expected to not have issues like gangs and corrupt cops, though obviously it still would. Yes, you could have the Silver Age idea of just fighting random mad scientists or counter-revolutionaries, but for the most part stories about regular criminal activity due to poverty being widespread would be seen as counter-revolutionary.
Agreed. American superheroes won't really be crime fighters ITTL (European ones might). The exception will be organized crime, which does still exist, albeit on a much smaller scale. The abolition of capitalism both reduces the incentive for people to turn to crime and opportunities to get rich through crime, as the IWW's practice of keeping finances public makes things like embezzlement harder. We also won't get Prohibition, which was the real catalyst for the development of nationwide crime syndicates. But the Revolution didn't abolish organized crime entirely, and straight-up robbery is still a thing.

Teams will definitely be much more common and Bruce Wayne himself will probably be lower class. That said, once comic books start developing more complex storylines, another hero coming from a wealthy background would be likely, with part of their narrative being them coming to terms with the Revolution. I'm leaning towards the daughter of a wealthy family who was a teenager when the Revolution came, and one of her traits is that she can infiltrate high society abroad very effectively. This might be delayed until the Silver Age.

Actually, from my limited knowledge of superheroes, the one who fits this the best could be Moon Knight, aka Miriam Spector, onetime heiress to a wealthy Jewish family. When the Revolution came, she stole a few artifacts her father had in his collection, initially planning on just selling them, but instead they gave her powers (later retcons had them also stopping her aging). Being Jewish, she'd be no friend of the Whites or Falangists, and some writers would suggest that she always had socialist sympathies (this is a major point of contention among fans, with some feeling that it weakens her character development).
 
The biggest issue with any Marvel character being a product of the revolution is that Marvel didn't start until nearly 30 years after the revolution and it didn't build the stable we know as the Marvel heroes today until nearly 50 years after the revolution. Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, and Steve Ditko are children at this point. Having them have a character who was a hero due the Revolution would be like the MCU retaining the fact that Iron Man was in the Vietnam War.
 
I'm thinking about what the ASU version of Elfquest would look like, but at first glance I think it could work for the most part without too many changes. Since the protagonists couldn't do much without the support of the rest of the tribe, and the story emphasizes this fact (actually quite a lot is invested in developing the various members of the Wolf Tribe and Sun People) it could be formulated as part of the main socialist theme that "United we can do great things that alone we could not". Since there are elves of all colors (white, black, etc) and they don't have a problem with women occupying all kinds of positions, it wouldn't even be necessary to make too many changes. In turn, the humans would probably have to be modified to look more Middle Age or Modern (Stone Age tribes don't fit as evil antagonists, rather they seem to be more scared of elves than anything else, and could look like a cartoon of Native Americans). I would have to think more about this matter but it could work.
 
I wonder how H.P. Lovecraft would be affected by the Second American Revolution. IOTL, he was a conservative around this time (with rather xenophobic ideas developing in him), but the Great Depression radicalized him into being a socialist when seeing the failure of the politicians and wealthy in resolving the crisis. Perhaps ITTL, seeing the Whites fail in stopping the Red advance into Providence, Britain not helping America, and the news of the massacres by the Whites and the KKK radicalize Lovecraft earlier ITTL. This could also lead to his mother Susan Lovecraft to experience an early death due to the shock of the Second Revolution and allow Lovecraft to emerge out of her control earlier. As for Lovecraft's writings, the emergance of a great movement overpowering the old reign of empire could inspire the work of Nyarlathotep earlier than OTL, with Nyarlathotep serving as the driving force behind said change and pushing for radical chaos. It could also lead to the development of the Great Race of Yith, perhaps sharing similarities with the ASU's organization.
 
I wonder how H.P. Lovecraft would be affected by the Second American Revolution. IOTL, he was a conservative around this time (with rather xenophobic ideas developing in him), but the Great Depression radicalized him into being a socialist when seeing the failure of the politicians and wealthy in resolving the crisis. Perhaps ITTL, seeing the Whites fail in stopping the Red advance into Providence, Britain not helping America, and the news of the massacres by the Whites and the KKK radicalize Lovecraft earlier ITTL. This could also lead to his mother Susan Lovecraft to experience an early death due to the shock of the Second Revolution and allow Lovecraft to emerge out of her control earlier. As for Lovecraft's writings, the emergance of a great movement overpowering the old reign of empire could inspire the work of Nyarlathotep earlier than OTL, with Nyarlathotep serving as the driving force behind said change and pushing for radical chaos. It could also lead to the development of the Great Race of Yith, perhaps sharing similarities with the ASU's organization.
I have plans for Lovecraft, but these ideas can be worked into them.
 
I wonder how H.P. Lovecraft would be affected by the Second American Revolution. IOTL, he was a conservative around this time (with rather xenophobic ideas developing in him), but the Great Depression radicalized him into being a socialist when seeing the failure of the politicians and wealthy in resolving the crisis. Perhaps ITTL, seeing the Whites fail in stopping the Red advance into Providence, Britain not helping America, and the news of the massacres by the Whites and the KKK radicalize Lovecraft earlier ITTL. This could also lead to his mother Susan Lovecraft to experience an early death due to the shock of the Second Revolution and allow Lovecraft to emerge out of her control earlier. As for Lovecraft's writings, the emergance of a great movement overpowering the old reign of empire could inspire the work of Nyarlathotep earlier than OTL, with Nyarlathotep serving as the driving force behind said change and pushing for radical chaos. It could also lead to the development of the Great Race of Yith, perhaps sharing similarities with the ASU's organization.
I mean Lovecraft was extremely racist at this point of time so would he really be that negatively effected by the crimes of the Whites during the ITTL Revolution?
He was still coasting off of the inherited wealth of his New England Upper class background as well during this time I think as well. So he may just be radicalized to an even more reactionary position and flee to Britain or such with his extreme New England WASP racism.
 
I mean Lovecraft was extremely racist at this point of time so would he really be that negatively effected by the crimes of the Whites during the ITTL Revolution?
He was still coasting off of the inherited wealth of his New England Upper class background as well during this time I think as well. So he may just be radicalized to an even more reactionary position and flee to Britain or such with his extreme New England WASP racism.
Their finances were ruined in 1904 because of Whipple’s financial catastrophe. They never really recovered from it and continue to have a financial decline. And IOTL, although he liked Hitler as many other Americans did, once he heard from a neighbor accounts of Jews being beaten, he stopped praising Hitler.
 
Last edited:
Yeah his finances were in decline by this point but I don't think he really ran ouyt of the inherited wealth of his family until the late 20's or early 30's? And again this was during the time before he was in New York or was married for a time to his Jewish wife. So he has had at this point zero interactions that could had started to prep him for him to break out of his upper class New Englander conditioning. So, him still being a full throttle reactionary Anglophile I feel is not unrealistic considering the circumstances.
 
Yeah his finances were in decline by this point but I don't think he really ran ouyt of the inherited wealth of his family until the late 20's or early 30's? And again this was during the time before he was in New York or was married for a time to his Jewish wife. So he has had at this point zero interactions that could had started to prep him for him to break out of his upper class New Englander conditioning. So, him still being a full throttle reactionary Anglophile I feel is not unrealistic considering the circumstances.
It’s not unrealistic, I’d admit, but Lovecraft did show his views could evolve over time with proper exposure. He traveled across the East Coast and even Quebec, where he gained a respect for Quebecois and First Nation cultures. I think if he’d get to know some of the Red Army soldiers, like, say, a young Frank Belknap Long, it’d be possible he begins to shed his past views. As for the family fortune, I don’t know for certain, but I doubt they had much wealth if they had to move to a duplex.
 
I kind of want to focus a bit on European pop culture. One of the most intriguing possibilities for me is seeing stuff like the Hunchback of Notre Dame getting a modern interpretation. For starters I could see Judge Frollo being a Falangist and, with Falangism being steeped in religion, having his men be TTL's equivalent of blackshirts persecuting the romani characters like in the play.
 
I kind of want to focus a bit on European pop culture. One of the most intriguing possibilities for me is seeing stuff like the Hunchback of Notre Dame getting a modern interpretation. For starters I could see Judge Frollo being a Falangist and, with Falangism being steeped in religion, having his men be TTL's equivalent of blackshirts persecuting the romani characters like in the play.
I suspect that this will be the edition made abroad because in Falangist France whoever does something like that will end up in jail...
 
I suspect that this will be the edition made abroad because in Falangist France whoever does something like that will end up in jail...
That or having it published in a post war environment. Either way there's no way in hell the french falangists aren't going to label Hunchback of Notre Dame an anti-christian and anti-state piece of work probably due to it criticizing the exact types of people the Falangists are and its sympathetic portrayals of the Romani people.
 
That or having it published in a post war environment. Either way there's no way in hell the french falangists aren't going to label Hunchback of Notre Dame an anti-christian and anti-state piece of work probably due to it criticizing the exact types of people the Falangists are and its sympathetic portrayals of the Romani people.
Absolutely. The only question is whether they just ban Hunchback or ban all of Alexandre Dumas' works. Probably the latter.
 
Absolutely. The only question is whether they just ban Hunchback or ban all of Alexandre Dumas' works. Probably the latter.
I only know Hunchback of Notre Dame but I'm assuming that all of Alexandre Dumas' work was just as critical towards religious fanatics as Hunchback of Notre Dame is. Edit: Turns out Alexandre Dumas wrote stuff like three musketeers and the count of monte crisito not the Hunchback of Notre Dame. Ignore the literary sin I have committed at the top while I lash myself with Shakespeares works.
 
Last edited:
Top