The English Charlemagne: A Plantagenet-Capet TL
- Thread starter Liminia1
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I can't say for his personal ideas cause that's an elia question but in terms of the succession of France it is important to note: no matter how you slice the cake Edward III under any succession law could not inherit France, this is a fact. Isabella's reasoning ignores all of her brother's daughters in order to claim the throne, it is a weak excuse to claim the throne of France that's why she was thrown out. For this TL though, I think the best way forward would be agnatic-cognatic primogeniture since Joan is the granddaughter of the firstborn prince of France. For English interests in France though the key word I think here is that there are crown lands of France and there are the various duchies. Philip IV's death is going to spark major arguments with the estates, one of them is definitely going to argue Joan is illegitimate and the crown should go to Capet-Burgundy through the tour de nesle affair. Another argument lead by Charles of Valois or Philip of Valois is that he should inherit due to Salic Law applying to only the crown of France. If Edward successfully seizes the throne of France most likely through right of his wife, Joan II of Navarre he will spend quite a while getting rid of these succession claims after all, any Capetian branch such as Valois and Everux will challenge and consolidate their claims to take back the throne, I will also point out the crown of England was also not that powerful either after Edward III's ascension he only held the land by force of charm and arms. How this is going to play out we shall see, honestly I could pull a genius move and dissolve the crown of France
Hmm.I can't say for his personal ideas cause that's an elia question but in terms of the succession of France it is important to note: no matter how you slice the cake Edward III under any succession law could not inherit France, this is a fact. Isabella's reasoning ignores all of her brother's daughters in order to claim the throne, it is a weak excuse to claim the throne of France that's why she was thrown out. For this TL though, I think the best way forward would be agnatic-cognatic primogeniture since Joan is the granddaughter of the firstborn prince of France. For English interests in France though the key word I think here is that there are crown lands of France and there are the various duchies. Philip IV's death is going to spark major arguments with the estates, one of them is definitely going to argue Joan is illegitimate and the crown should go to Capet-Burgundy through the tour de nesle affair. Another argument lead by Charles of Valois or Philip of Valois is that he should inherit due to Salic Law applying to only the crown of France. If Edward successfully seizes the throne of France most likely through right of his wife, Joan II of Navarre he will spend quite a while getting rid of these succession claims after all, any Capetian branch such as Valois and Everux will challenge and consolidate their claims to take back the throne, I will also point out the crown of England was also not that powerful either after Edward III's ascension he only held the land by force of charm and arms. How this is going to play out we shall see, honestly I could pull a genius move and dissolve the crown of France
All this seems to show that a fight is inevitable at least.
Oh 100% I know Elia has a reputation for sunshine and rainbows and happy endings but I do not if you have read my TLs I write in pure politics and realism.
The otl reasoning was that Phillip V made the throne restricted to men, but that law change didn’t say that the male descendant of women were blocked from the throne(if you believe that reasoning, then by proximity of blood, Edward was indeed the king, if you believe in primogeniture, it would have been otl Charles the Bad of Navarre) . Here Edward would depend heavily on his marriage to Joan II and the favour/goodwill of Philip IV to provide all the legal justifications.I can't say for his personal ideas cause that's an elia question but in terms of the succession of France it is important to note: no matter how you slice the cake Edward III under any succession law could not inherit France, this is a fact. Isabella's reasoning ignores all of her brother's daughters in order to claim the throne, it is a weak excuse to claim the throne of France that's why she was thrown out. For this TL though, I think the best way forward would be agnatic-cognatic primogeniture since Joan is the granddaughter of the firstborn prince of France. For English interests in France though the key word I think here is that there are crown lands of France and there are the various duchies. Philip IV's death is going to spark major arguments with the estates, one of them is definitely going to argue Joan is illegitimate and the crown should go to Capet-Burgundy through the tour de nesle affair. Another argument lead by Charles of Valois or Philip of Valois is that he should inherit due to Salic Law applying to only the crown of France. If Edward successfully seizes the throne of France most likely through right of his wife, Joan II of Navarre he will spend quite a while getting rid of these succession claims after all, any Capetian branch such as Valois and Everux will challenge and consolidate their claims to take back the throne, I will also point out the crown of England was also not that powerful either after Edward III's ascension he only held the land by force of charm and arms. How this is going to play out we shall see, honestly I could pull a genius move and dissolve the crown of France
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I was not aware of either fact actually. But thanks for informing me.
In the end though I guess I'm thinking, all these conflicting claims are going to make a fight inevitable because that's just how these situations tend to develop into...
Edward was the legitimate heir of France under the succession law established by Philip V after his brother’s death (as that excluded females but not female lines). Salic Law was NOT existent/applied in France until the death of Charles IV and primogeniture was used as much as blood proximity. Isabella had NEVER claimed the French Crown for HERSELF but her son was the closest male relative of both Charles IV or Philip IV. Louis X’s daughter was still childless, like the daughters of Charles IV, while Philip V’s elder daughter Jeanne had a son but the boy had an inferior claim to Edward as Philip V had died before his brotherI can't say for his personal ideas cause that's an elia question but in terms of the succession of France it is important to note: no matter how you slice the cake Edward III under any succession law could not inherit France, this is a fact. Isabella's reasoning ignores all of her brother's daughters in order to claim the throne, it is a weak excuse to claim the throne of France that's why she was thrown out. For this TL though, I think the best way forward would be agnatic-cognatic primogeniture since Joan is the granddaughter of the firstborn prince of France. For English interests in France though the key word I think here is that there are crown lands of France and there are the various duchies. Philip IV's death is going to spark major arguments with the estates, one of them is definitely going to argue Joan is illegitimate and the crown should go to Capet-Burgundy through the tour de nesle affair. Another argument lead by Charles of Valois or Philip of Valois is that he should inherit due to Salic Law applying to only the crown of France. If Edward successfully seizes the throne of France most likely through right of his wife, Joan II of Navarre he will spend quite a while getting rid of these succession claims after all, any Capetian branch such as Valois and Everux will challenge and consolidate their claims to take back the throne, I will also point out the crown of England was also not that powerful either after Edward III's ascension he only held the land by force of charm and arms. How this is going to play out we shall see, honestly I could pull a genius move and dissolve the crown of France
Well I can't make it easy for Edward can I? The problem is Philip V is dead never establishing the rules of succession and Philip IV has to choose the right of succession. Personally I am preferring agnatic-coagnatic primogeniture rather than proximity of blood but I can argue the finer points with Elia later.
Without Philip V’s messing with the succession Jeanne is the heiress of her grandfather, that is clear.
I was just telling you who the part about the OTL events was wrong as Edward III had a strong claim while Isabella never tried to get the crown for herself (as her brother Philip had made impossible claiming the Crown for his sister, daughters and nieces)
Not everything I write is happy.
I also get rid of people if necessary and make marriages bad. But for wish-fulfilment TLs, that's not always the case.
That said, if Joan were to be childless(I don’t think she would be, given she was fairly fertile) and she died prematurely, is it feasible that Edward, already entrenched as King Consort of France could politic his way into become the true king of France in his own right much like Sigismund of Luxembourg in Hungary and Wladyslaw II in Poland?If he was King Consort for a while, and he is the grandson of the previous king, then he may no longer be seen as a foreigner, but a known quantity who is ‘native’.
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Oh that would be incredibly funny, it would definitely cause more chaos
It'd be one of multiple fun paths you could take.Oh that would be incredibly funny, it would definitely cause more chaos
Oh that would be incredibly funny, it would definitely cause more chaos
That would be the major plot twist if you want to go to the chaotic path. That said, I am still fully expecting a major civil war in France. One that Edward would profoundly find it easier to win than otl seeing as Joan in her own right already holds major territories like Champagne, and Philip IV’s laws will probably make it difficult for the majority of French nobles to side solidly with the Valois or any other party.In which case his own position would be buffed after confiscating all the land. If Joan dies without issue, Edward can probably survive this.Let Elia cook first and I still have my rewrite to work on
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And I have faith in whatever path you two likely choose.Again Elia and I have to decide