The Destruction of the BEF (WW1)

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Deleted member 1487

What if von Kluck's 1st army had managed to chase down the BEF and crush it after Mons? What would the effects have been on the later battle of the Marne and the political situation in Britain?
 
Without von Kuhl's (Kluck's COS) obsession to make good the setbacks of Mons and Le Cateau (two close-run escapes of the BEF because of von Kuhl's faulty troop dispositions), German 1st Army might have followed von Moltke's orders and have screened and covered the right flank of the German advance.
This in turn would mean that Maunory's 6th French Army would be 'greeted' by a concentrated 1st German Army - and duly annihilated.

Without the BEF and Maunory's army, a French counter offensive at the Marne would hardly take place.
Consequently, by about mid-September Moltke would succeed in pincing off Verdun and 2nd French Army.
This, in turn would initiate the collapse of the French fortress line in Lorraine.

That might cause the French government to ask for terms.
 

Deleted member 1487

I found the perfect POD for this idea. Turns out Sewell Tyng talks about this in his book on the Marne. Von Beloew of the 2nd army ordered von Kluck to conform the 1st army to his flank at the battle of the Sambre. Von Kluck wanted to swing further West first, which would have left him to the West of the BEF at Mons. Tyng suggests that had this happened then the BEF would have been encircled and destroyed in its very first engagement. So let's say that happens.

The BEF is taken in the flank and surrounded as the French 5th army retreats. The 1st and 2nd corps are destroyed along with most of the British cavalry. This is a major hit to morale and the British now only have the 3rd and 4th corps, both of which were understrength as it was. How do the British react and what happens during the rest of the campaign? The French 5th army can only really retreat, because every time it stops to fight, von Kluck with charge his flank. This also leaves a major gap in the line that the French 6th army will need to fill, as will extra troops taken from the frontier to cover Paris. The British are unlikely to commit more troops to the continent, as their morale is likely very shaken thanks to the first engagement in nearly a century in Western Europe ends with their army being wiped out.
 

Larrikin

Banned
I found the perfect POD for this idea. Turns out Sewell Tyng talks about this in his book on the Marne. Von Beloew of the 2nd army ordered von Kluck to conform the 1st army to his flank at the battle of the Sambre. Von Kluck wanted to swing further West first, which would have left him to the West of the BEF at Mons. Tyng suggests that had this happened then the BEF would have been encircled and destroyed in its very first engagement. So let's say that happens.

The BEF is taken in the flank and surrounded as the French 5th army retreats. The 1st and 2nd corps are destroyed along with most of the British cavalry. This is a major hit to morale and the British now only have the 3rd and 4th corps, both of which were understrength as it was. How do the British react and what happens during the rest of the campaign? The French 5th army can only really retreat, because every time it stops to fight, von Kluck with charge his flank. This also leaves a major gap in the line that the French 6th army will need to fill, as will extra troops taken from the frontier to cover Paris. The British are unlikely to commit more troops to the continent, as their morale is likely very shaken thanks to the first engagement in nearly a century in Western Europe ends with their army being wiped out.

Allenby's cavalry and the nascent RFC did a superb job of scouting and screening for the BEF. They won the information war. French committed the BEF at Mons because he knew where the Germans were, and did it again at Le Cateau. Le Cateau wouldn't have been near as worrying to the BEF if Haig hadn't panicked and not put the 2nd Corp into action on the 1st's right flank like he was supposed to.

Finally, you can retreat faster than you can advance, and Robertson did a brilliant job as QMG in setting up supply dumps along the path the BEF had to retreat along.

For the Germans to trap and destroy them they need to do two things. The first is to work out how to shoot down opposition aircraft, and the second is to somehow trap and destroy the Cavalry Brigade. They proved singularly inept at both during the Retreat to the Marne.
 

Deleted member 1487

Allenby's cavalry and the nascent RFC did a superb job of scouting and screening for the BEF. They won the information war. French committed the BEF at Mons because he knew where the Germans were, and did it again at Le Cateau. Le Cateau wouldn't have been near as worrying to the BEF if Haig hadn't panicked and not put the 2nd Corp into action on the 1st's right flank like he was supposed to.

Finally, you can retreat faster than you can advance, and Robertson did a brilliant job as QMG in setting up supply dumps along the path the BEF had to retreat along.

For the Germans to trap and destroy them they need to do two things. The first is to work out how to shoot down opposition aircraft, and the second is to somehow trap and destroy the Cavalry Brigade. They proved singularly inept at both during the Retreat to the Marne.

Tyng paints a vastly different picture. Apparently the BEF was just as in the dark as the Germans and the BEF was just asked to bring up the left flank of the French 5th army. There was no indication that they knew where the Germans were, just that they were following French orders and pre-war plans by extending the French line. Mons had been chosen as the spot weeks earlier when the BEF was being shipped over and the French were planning on pushing out their lines to the north. When combat started both sides were surprised by the appearance of the other.

http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/photolib/maps/Map of Battle of Mons 1914 1922.jpg

http://20072008.free.fr/site2004/sketch_5.jpg

These maps show the cavalry in a reserve role, rather than a scouting one. Tyng states both sides had few aircraft and often ignored the fragmented information they presented, because it often was contradictory and factually wrong at this point in the war.
 

Riain

Banned
3rd and 4th Corps? I thought the BEF was only about 6 divisions strong during these first few weeks of the war.
 
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