The Demologos in the Chesapeake campaign?

[NHBL]

Dead Calm

The Demologos would, IMVHO, only choose to come out when there was no wind, maximising its advantages. I believe that it was planned to use hot shot--so I'd assume that it sould be used effectively. American naval gunners were pretty good.

Just because there were no swivels on the plans doesn't mean much there would be none; I can't imagine any captain sailing without them.

Heated shot doesn't have to penetrate; it just has to get stuck.

Incidently, USS Constitution had 24 pounders; Demologos had 32 pounders--bigger guns.

 

[Elfwine]

Yes it will reduce its effectiveness, however its opponents effectiveness will be reduced more, at long range they cannot hurt it, and it can still slightly hurt them

And this, I think we need to note, is based on the idea of it having thicker sides - which is not backed up by any data except the wiki article.

And the wiki article referencing something on Changing the Times - given the kind of stuff on that site (The Unlost Cause?!), I'm especially inclined to be doubtful.

True but it can maneuver much better than a pure sailing vessel, and that's what matters

Yes wooden steam ships catch on fire, that risk would be much the same whether it is using Red Hot shot or not, the fire would still be there to heat the boiler whether or not it would be using Red Shot or not (the only added risk is someone dropping the shot and not recovering it quick, wood takes time to catch fire and there would be preventative measures in place, or the gun bursting, but that doesn't usually set fires)

The point is that having it manuever better isn't necessarily enough better to be raking enemies and crossing Ts so easily as the people who like this are promoting.

As for reliability, yeah that's a problem, but one that can be mitigated by overhauling the thing before each use

I never said it was invincible, merely that under certain conditions it would be a nightmare (I save the invincible super ship version of this for my ASB TL)

In certain conditions, it would be of some effectiveness. It would take practically "the Royal Navy is completely caught off guard, in a dead calm, and otherwise clutching the idiot ball like the Precious" for it to be nightmarish.

Several of these at once is one thing, but not a single ship, which even if it hammers a given ship can be hammered by others.

 

[Elfwine]

The Demologos would, IMVHO, only choose to come out when there was no wind, maximising its advantages. I believe that it was planned to use hot shot--so I'd assume that it sould be used effectively. American naval gunners were pretty good.

So were British naval gunners.

Just because there were no swivels on the plans doesn't mean much there would be none; I can't imagine any captain sailing without them.

Heated shot doesn't have to penetrate; it just has to get stuck.

Incidently, USS Constitution had 24 pounders; Demologos had 32 pounders--bigger guns.

The USS Constitution:

http://www.ussconstitutionmuseum.or.../the-captain-speaks/the-guns-of-constitution/

This isn't as simple as "The Constitution had 24 pounders". Not even close.

 

[RamscoopRaider]

And this, I think we need to note, is based on the idea of it having thicker sides - which is not backed up by any data except the wiki article.

And the wiki article referencing something on Changing the Times - given the kind of stuff on that site (The Unlost Cause?!), I'm especially inclined to be doubtful.

The point is that having it manuever better isn't necessarily enough better to be raking enemies and crossing Ts so easily as the people who like this are promoting.

In certain conditions, it would be of some effectiveness. It would take practically "the Royal Navy is completely caught off guard, in a dead calm, and otherwise clutching the idiot ball like the Precious" for it to be nightmarish.

Several of these at once is one thing, but not a single ship, which even if it hammers a given ship can be hammered by others.

The Changing the times article is a link, not a reference

If it isn't a dead calm and the British are not in a position for the vessel to bite off isolated ships ships, say when dispersed to enforce a blockade, then there is no reason for the vessel to sortie, the US Navy of the time would rather stay in port than risk futile endeavors

But for a force pulling blockade duty where they cannot be concentrated for mutual support, in an area where there are calm periods, the presence of a vessel like this would give anyone nightmares

 

[Elfwine]

The Changing the times article is a link, not a reference

A link that really doesn't belong in a historical (as opposed to alt-historical) resource.

My bad on refering to it as a reference, but it's still there as an ugly blotch.

If it isn't a dead calm and the British are not in a position for the vessel to bite off isolated ships ships, say when dispersed to enforce a blockade, then there is no reason for the vessel to sortie

But for a force pulling blockade duty where they cannot be concentrated for mutual support, in an area where there are calm periods, the presence of a vessel like this would give anyone nightmares

So in other words, this vessel lies in harbor in the hopes that the stars align.

It has to have a perfect calm, the engines running, the British dispersed, the British ideally completely off guard . . .

I can't see this being built without the expectation and intention of it being used in action, and if Fulton et al are half as enthusiastic as people are here, they're going to argue that it can take on British ships even at "a disadvantage".

Honestly the US would be far better served building a few conventional heavy frigates.

 

[RamscoopRaider]

A link that really doesn't belong in a historical (as opposed to alt-historical) resource.

My bad on refering to it as a reference, but it's still there as an ugly blotch.

So in other words, this vessel lies in harbor in the hopes that the stars align.

It has to have a perfect calm, the engines running, the British dispersed, the British ideally completely off guard . . .

I can't see this being built without the expectation and intention of it being used in action, and if Fulton et al are half as enthusiastic as people are here, they're going to argue that it can take on British ships even at "a disadvantage".

Honestly the US would be far better served building a few conventional heavy frigates.

Just engines running (most unlikely but there Fulton had built other steam boats before that worked enough to make money), calm (not uncommon), and the British dispersed, which they will have to be to pull an effective blockade, they only have so many ships assigned to north America

If the British do not disperse, they cover less sea and that is a win as the blockade is looser and more hell can be raised on the sea lanes

Remember much of the US navy spent most of the war sitting in port waiting for the stars to align OTL

In all honesty the thing was 2/3rds the size of a heavy frigate and probably cheaper, and under the right conditions it is more effective

 

[Elfwine]

Just engines running (most unlikely but there Fulton had built other steam boats before that worked enough to make money), calm (not uncommon), and the British dispersed, which they will have to be to pull an effective blockade, they only have so many ships assigned to north America

If the British do not disperse, they cover less sea and that is a win as the blockade is looser and more hell can be raised on the sea lanes

Remember much of the US navy spent most of the war sitting in port waiting for the stars to align OTL

In all honesty the thing was 2/3rds the size of a heavy frigate and probably cheaper, and under the right conditions it is more effective

The problem is that while they may be dispersed, if they see a serious threat, they're going to focus on it, not let it pick them off. That's why you need them caught off guard - otherwise countermeasures will be taken. And this is not such an awesome ship as to be able to prevent them so easily as people want to think. Yes, it takes a while to manuever a ship by kedging or the like. And it takes a while to fire a broadside, too. It's not going to be given a perfect shot for an entire engagement unless it's very, very lucky.

Most of the US navy actually went out cruising (Essex was lost doing so, for example), this ship doesn't seem to have that option even if the stars are aligned.

Under the right conditions, it is somewhat more manueverable and somewhat more lethal IF it uses red hot shot than one not using red hot shot.

Not worth depending on balky engines, calm waters, and no breeze.

So again, I'd rather have three or so USS Constitution-type ships concentrated than three of these praying for the right conditions in different locations.

I trust the professionals over the enthusiasts.

The USS Ticoderoga could have been used as a steam ship, but somehow all the reasons why steam is the awesome didn't convince Macdonough. Why should we trust Changing the Times's vision of the Demologos over MacDonough's decision with an actual opportunity to have a steam warship in time to do anything?

 

[RPW@Cy]

Some thoughts on this. For information, the most useful picture of the Demologos I've seen is this one from a naval history site which seems to be more or less contemporary and gives a clear description of her layout.

However there are some obvious problems with her design. Firstly, there is the central mounting of the paddle wheel, which is indeed helpful in terms of protecting the wheel itself, however it does mean that the boiler is on the left of the wheel and the steam engine is on the right - which means that somewhere, not shown on the plan, is a large pipe carrying steam from the boiler to the engine across most of the width of the ship. I hope it doesn't need to be explained what a critical safety risk this is. One stray cannonball - heck, one good sized wood fragment from a hull strike - and the steam pipe is breached and she's dead in the water.

Secondly, she's not going to be that manoeuvrable - the problem with a single centrally mounted wheel is that you can't turn her by applying differential power to the wheels the way you could with a side mounted paddle steamer, you're going to have to rely on a rudder. Which means that, with a top speed of only 5 knots she's not going to be outmanoeuvring the blockade ships in anything other than a flat calm. (How often is the sea dead calm around New York? I'm guessing not very.)

Thirdly, heated shot isn't a wonder weapon. For starters, it takes several hours to heat a 32 lb ball until it's red hot - which means (a) you essentially have to start heating it the night before and (b) once you've fired off your first lot of shot you won't be getting more before the battle is over. Now you can't tell from the pictures just how big the firebox is, but I would be very surprised indeed if it could heat more than dozen balls at once. Once they're gone Demologos is firing normal shot the same as her targets. And this is ignoring the fun the crew are going to have carrying red hot shot to the gun deck. Up a ladder (the firebox is below the waterline), In the dark, with smoke and steam everywhere, and probably with the ship rocking unpredictably from wave motion and multiple impacts...

No. Demologos needs a very precise set of unusual circumstances to be an effective threat, otherwise it's more likely to be a danger to her crew than the enemy. I suspect the USN knew what they were doing when they had her on active service for a grand total of one day before laying her up.

 

[Elfwine]

The red hot shot problem doesn't sound much worse than for anyone else, but it definitely doesn't sound better.

In terms of transporting it to the guns - it's not something you'd want stacked by them, so there'd have to be somewhere the shots are held.

I suppose under ideal circumstances you could have this do some damage, but I wouldn't be too thrilled with it.

And that drawing refers to it as a harbor defense vessel - meaning, it's not really expected to go out trying to find enemy ships, it's hoping they come to it.

That's definitely contrary to the visions of it steaming up to blockaders, I think.