The Radzwill's were trying to end the Polish-Lithuanian union what if the Sweden and Lithuania got united and Poland gets united with Brandenburg under the Hohenzollerns after the Deluge, how could this happen and what POD is needed for Poland and Lithuania to Split.
The Deluge ends with Poland-Brandenburg and Sweden-Lithuania
- Thread starter kasumigenx
- Start date
MSZ
Banned
Brandenburg forming a union with Poland and the Hohenzollern's would be awkward to say the least, seeing that the royal house is completly irrelevant and powerless - being a fief of the HRE, recovering from the 30 years war, those in Prussia being fiefs of Poland itself. So if Sweden somehow pushed through a Hohenzollern being elected, he would be kicked out of the throne very quickly.
I think a Wettin or a Habsburg would be a good contender to the throne once the Hohenzollerns are kicked on the Polish throne and loses Prussia.
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Razgriz 2K9
Banned
Even the Wettin's of Saxony would be a bit of a long shot at this early in the game...chances are it will be a Hapsburg who'll just add Poland to their Empire to compensate for a Swedish Lithuania.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
Hapsburg Poland is easy: have a Hapsburg Prince (I forgot the name) elected as the PLC's next King instead of Stefan Batory. Then if Sweden could have Lithuania under its control, Radziwill would have to successfully stage a revolt against the PLC. Though as an added bonus, Sweden could annex Prussia and Lithuania as well, joining it with Estonia and Latvia and you have a Swedish lake in the Baltic Sea.
The Swedes would have Belarus and maybe Ukraine as well if they annexed the GDL.
Spengler
Banned
Why would the still weak Brandenburg add, Poland to their empire. Considering Poland has a much larger population, as well as a distinct national identity that wouldn't take well to being ruled over by an absolute Monarch who can't keep his own lands safe, after centuries of an Aristocratic Republic.
Razgriz 2K9
Banned
I never said that Brandenburg would want to add Poland, although I didn't say they would either. But I do agree with you on that Poland's national identity and larger population would subvert any union between the two...
and yet there is still the issue with Lithuania, if the Swedish-Lithuanian union does come to pass, does this mean that we will have a weakened Poland akin to the late 18th century (and made a protectorate of the Holy Roman Empire if not Denmark-Norway) or will they have some power left in them?
Spengler
Banned
Actually you'd probably have strengthen Poland, they can now call on Brandenburg to help them out if they get in trouble. I still think the whole scenario is hard to come by though. About Lithuania and Sweden you have the problem of religious differences. Also I suspect that Sweden would just treat Lithuania as a junior partner.
You are having the same religious differences between Catholic Poland and Protestant Brandenburg/Prussia too.
Spengler
Banned
Which I also suspect wouldn't work out too well. Especially considering what happened to the Polish-Swedish Union.
Well, what is the date for "after the deluge"? 1660? 1667? Looking for the term gave me both possibilities.
If it´s after 1657 (1660), the Duchy of Prussia is no longer a Polish fief.
And I wouldn´t call Elector Frederick William, the "Great Elector", completely irrelevant and powerless? Rebuilding the state, creating a standing army, inviting the Huguenots...
The religious differences between Catholic Poland and Protestant Brandenburg might be more awkward. Same for Protestant Sweden and Catholic Lithuania. So the "split" doesn´t quite make sense?
MSZ
Banned
Not sure what your point is here.
While nominally Prussia stopped being a polish fief in 1657, it de facto remained one, paying tribute until 1700. The "Great electors" greatness came at the cost of depleting Brandenburg's population after he indirectly brought it to ruin by remaining so staunchly calvinist, 'inviting' both protestant Sweden to loot it and later the catholic league to do the same. Growth by percantage is hardly a problem once you bring a country to rock bottom.
What 'split' are you mentioning? Polish and Lithuanian? Seeing that the Lithuanian nobles were traditionally disloyal, willing to side with anyone who at the moment offered the something, I doubt they would think twice about backstabbing Poland which btw. they did OTL - before Sweden got its ass owned by the Poles, causing the Lithuanians to revert back to the Polish side. And given Poland's traditional religous tolerance, a King of non-catholic religion isn't that hard to imagine (not sure if catholicism was required, didn't orthodox tzrs try to get elected fromtime to time?).
I simply don't think a Poland-Brandenburg union would hold for a long time, both because Brandenburg would be overpowered by Poland in this deal, as well as Poland not wanting to be any closer tothe HRE. IIRC Sweden did try to introduce its own king to the Polish throne during the Great Northern War and he ended up having to flee really fast. Doing the sae earlier would probably give same results.
If the Hohenzollerns remained weak it would be Austria and Russia or Habsburg and Romanovs Split the union between Poland and Lithuania if Poland-Lithuania remained weak after the deluge, the Hohenzollerns gained a claim to Polish throne because of the Silesian Piasts and Jagellonian while the Habsburgs had three claims the Jagellonian, Kuyavian Piast and Silesian Piast while the Romanovs have a claim on the throne of Lithuania via Vytautas, I think the first partition was the realization of the three claims if there were only two claimants there will be a two way partition not a three way one.
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Lithuanian nobles were traditionally loyal to GDL as were Polish to Poland. And Poles backstabbing Lithuania weren't less common than Lithuanians backstabbing Poland. That was some feature of PLC.
The king of PLC was required to be catholic.
Romanovs were not related to Vytautas.
Sophia of Lithuania, the daughter of Vytautas was married to Vasily of Moscow and was the Queen of Russia.
The Poles wanted a Piast after the demise of the Jagellonians but all the surviving Piasts became protestant, I think Queen Bona Sforza could arrange a marriage of one of her daughters to a Silesian Piast instead of a Vasa.