The Death of Russia - TL

[Quinkana]

She survived, and by mutual agreement didn't attend Charles's coronation.

Hmm how would prince Andrew turn out ittl?

 

[cra0422]

I was wondering, what other nations could possibly experience a "Death of" -type scenario? Personally, I think China would be a good candidate, like with the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests becoming more violent and/or causing a general uprising against the central government.

 

[Whiteshore]

I was wondering, what other nations could possibly experience a "Death of" -type scenario? Personally, I think China would be a good candidate, like with the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests becoming more violent and/or causing a general uprising against the central government.

Maybe a Death of India scenario with how diverse India is and both Naxalite and minority (in the Northeast) insurgencies and all that?

 

[Lalli]

Hmm how would prince Andrew turn out ittl?

I don't hink there being much difference between OTL and TTL Andrew.

But more intrested questions about British royalties: Did Charles still marry Camilla ITTL? And how did lives of William and Harry go? Probably bit differently speciality with Harry who seems taken bigger hit about his mother's death in OTL. Did they marry same women as in OTL?

I was wondering, what other nations could possibly experience a "Death of" -type scenario? Personally, I think China would be a good candidate, like with the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests becoming more violent and/or causing a general uprising against the central government.

China and India could indeed be possible candidates.

And South Africa too if something goes horribly wrong with Apartheid.

There would be some scenarios with the Death of America but it would be current politics.

 

[AstroRangerBeans]

I don't hink there being much difference between OTL and TTL Andrew.

But more intrested questions about British royalties: Did Charles still marry Camilla ITTL? And how did lives of William and Harry go? Probably bit differently speciality with Harry who seems taken bigger hit about his mother's death in OTL. Did they marry same women as in OTL?



China and India could indeed be possible candidates.

And South Africa too if something goes horribly wrong with Apartheid.

There would be some scenarios with the Death of America but it would be current politics.

Death of America is too involved with the current politics.

Death of China, India, and Indonesia are likely candidates but do not forget the Philippine version when someone goes wild and shoots protesters in EDSA.

 

[Mitridates the Great]

Death of America has been done many, many times. It's just that usually people prefer to call it "American Civil War II." In addition, they always work in the same way, so the point has come where they are mere repetitions of the same scheme.

 

[Lalli]

Death of America has been done many, many times. It's just that usually people prefer to call it "American Civil War II." In addition, they always work in the same way, so the point has come where they are mere repetitions of the same scheme.

Yeah. Pretty often Second American Civil War scenarios/TLs just repeat each others. And they too are about same timescale, usually in 1930's.

 

[Quinkana]

I don't hink there being much difference between OTL and TTL Andrew.

No sorry, I meant prince harry lol.

China and India could indeed be possible candidates.

A death of China would be very interesting. I do think a more devastating warlord period would work especially if the Japanese don't go down the route of WWII.

A split India could be done between the Dravidian and Hindu speakers and a Pakistan that does better. I know too little about India to do a judgement however.

And South Africa too if something goes horribly wrong with Apartheid.

Tbf it'd be less 'the death of south Africa' and more 'African nations asserting their own sovereignty'. It's very possible though and the ramifications would be interesting to see.

There would be some scenarios with the Death of America but it would be current politics.

Eh if you do an alt American civil war it could be possible especially if new England splits too.

 

[Lalli]

No sorry, I meant prince harry lol.

Since Harry doesn't lost his mother that young he probably would be pretty different person. Perhaps he is more willingful to take part on BRF. So probably not marriage with Meghan Markle and Harry stays in Britain. If he still marries someone, I just hope that he gives for his children better names. It took me long time before I stopped thinking Archie Bunker and I just don't really like name Lilibeth.

 

[Mitridates the Great]

Yeah. Pretty often Second American Civil War scenarios/TLs just repeat each others. And they too are about same timescale, usually in 1930's.

Correct but incomplete. I have generally seen two variants of the 2ACW which can be summed up like this:

-Variant “Reds Kaiserreich”:

It takes place in the 1930s. Usually an even worse Great Depression is used as an excuse, or some other super complicated economic-political explanation and in many cases it seems that not even the author stopped to think about it.

This means that somehow “the communists” (for some reason many of them will insist that they are not communists and will refer to themselves by other names, like claiming to be trade unionists, etc.) start to skyrocket their popular support to extremes where, in just two years, they go from being an absolutely irrelevant party to being literally the favorite (if not the only one with any chance of winning) contender in the race for the Presidency and sweeping popular support. (Bonus points if the following names are mentioned in the story: “Eugene Debs”, “Daniel DeLeon”, and “unionism”).

Naturally as well, the other politicians will only see as the most appropriate solution for this to raise the swastika in DC, proclaim themselves fascists, and carry out a coup, in addition to openly deploying federal troops to start massacring "hotbeds of communists". Of course, no one who is not part of the syndicalist faction will voice the slightest objection or opposition to such plans. On the contrary, they will be among the first to support such plans and to cry out for foreign support in general and from the British Empire and Nazi Germany in particular.

This, of course, means that this conflict very quickly turns into “the battle between the American Communists and their enemies, the American Nazis” because all the other factions have either been killed or suddenly decided that Australia and Britain are very welcoming at this time of year.

Often, to build on the American trope of “our allies are treacherous and are eager to cut ties with us and attack us at the first opportunity”, the rest of the powers of Europe will decide to focus their efforts on deploying huge numbers of troops in support of the American fascists and against the communists.

Very occasionally the authors will try to give various very poorly elaborated economic reasons for this, but they will almost never be done; it is more common to simply say that European politicians believe that the American Revolution will result in other similar rebellions breaking out in their own country, unless they crush the American Revolution.

Of course, this revolution ends with the communists winning even against the odds, exterminating large numbers of their enemies in mass purges akin to Mao's Cultural Revolution (history will portray this as just and necessary to uphold revolution and American peace) and destroying all traces that the United States of America ever existed as an evil and reactionary regime not worth even remembering.

The "Death of America".

-Variant “Trump screwed up”.

It occurs in the 2030s at the earliest. In essence, what this variant postulates is a reverse of the above. Trump will be named and blamed as the cause of this, even if it occurs decades after his tenure. For reasons that are never developed beyond “that's how it is,” GOP politicians are told they will NEVER legitimately win an election again. This is never developed beyond vague mentions of "because economics, because demographics", considering that this is such a solid argument that it does not deserve further explanation.

What we will be presented with are all kinds of highly elaborated and increasingly apocalyptic economic and social projections, to a point where it seems that the premise is “Everything that could go wrong did go wrong. Everything that could be done wrong, was done wrong. Everyone who tried to do something to fix the problems was ignored, ridiculed, killed, or all at once."

The thing is, members of the Republican Party decide that instead of trying to do something to re-engage voters, their best chance to stay in power is to... stage a coup and seize power by force. Yes really. They'll be so idiots in this stories.

Naturally, this coup fails, but that's exactly what the script said had to happen. The reason for this is that the author needs an excuse to ensure that the Federal Government remains solidly and completely in the hands of the Democratic Party and its more radical variants.

Of course, this is intended for the coup leaders to immediately start a Second Civil War; they will raise the swastika in Cheyenne (so to speak a capital), proclaim the "Nazi States of America", and immediately proceed to organize the genocide of anyone they consider does not fit their vision of “a pure white America”.

This has the dual purpose of making it clear to us beyond any doubt that the members of the Nazi States of America are the bad guys (as if there were any doubt), as well as justifying any barbaric things the Federal Government commits thereafter as "karmic retribution", "the consequences of your actions finally catch up with you", "doing what must be done", and other similar "justifications".

In foreign policy, the authors will try to square the circle and tell us at the same time three statements that could not be more contradictory.

1) The world has plunged into a brutal economic crisis which means that everyone outside of the United States is even more screwed up than the Americans themselves, and governments have a hard time continuing to exist. This crisis will somehow provoke civil wars and regional conflicts.

2) Despite point 1, Russia and China possess the resources to start and sustain an incredibly resource and manpower-expensive series of expansionist wars of aggression, while the rest of the world just watches them coming and does nothing to defend themselves.

3) Despite points 1 and 2, Russia and China openly support the Nazi States of America and proceed to send them all kinds of supplies and reinforcements, while for their part the support of the Western Powers for the Federal Government arrives in drops. (If it does, because naturally Europe decides this is an excellent time to cut all ties they had with the United States and side with China and Russia on this matter.) This will not be done for any economic or political reason, but because, naturally, "our allies are treacherous and are eager to attack us from behind at the slightest opportunity even if it hurts them more than it hurts us."

Naturally, even though the members of the Nazi States of America are explicitly racist, Russophobic and Sinophobic, they embrace the support of the People's Republic of China and Putinist Russia and accept them as their friends and allies. Also, despite this obvious foreign meddling, the story will still focus on how this is an exclusively American conflict waged for exclusively American reasons.

Insert a series of chapters describing increasingly egregious war crimes, as the Federal Government also descends into ever-increasing radicalism, like their rivals, (helped by the fact that any moderate is immediately purged or killed by right-wingers) until a point is reached where the same situation as version 1 occurs, only this time the Federal Government is left-wing and the rebel insurgency is right-wing.

Whoever wins is irrelevant, although usually the Federal Government is the one that ends up winning, because it is achieved that the United States of America as we had known it is dead.

The Death of America.

 

[Gillan1220]

@Sorairo, just realised that the POD is in 1993, 4 years before Princess Diana's death. What has become of her in this ATL?

She survived, and by mutual agreement didn't attend Charles's coronation.

Hmm how would prince Andrew turn out ittl?

Would the POD also ensure that JFK Jr. survives beyond 1999?
Would Kurt Cobain survive as well?

Death of America has been done many, many times. It's just that usually people prefer to call it "American Civil War II." In addition, they always work in the same way, so the point has come where they are mere repetitions of the same scheme.

Yeah. Pretty often Second American Civil War scenarios/TLs just repeat each others. And they too are about same timescale, usually in 1930's.

-Variant “Trump screwed up”.

There's one Second American Civil War timeline set in 2029.

Shanghaied - 2ACW | alternate-timelines.com

This is a Second American Civil war story. It is set in the near future. All characters are fictional.

alternate-timelines.com

Death of America is too involved with the current politics.

Death of China, India, and Indonesia are likely candidates but do not forget the Philippine version when someone goes wild and shoots protesters in EDSA.

The first Philippine Civil War timeline I read is Rogue Generals.

Rogue Generals: A Different Post-EDSA Uno Philippines TL | alternate-timelines.com

Prologue: What Has Happened Right Now/ Anong Ang Nangyari Ngayon A/N: This is my first attempt at writing a TL in such a long time, and hopefully thi

alternate-timelines.com

Rebooted version:

Rogue Generals V2 Reboot: A Different Post-EDSA Uno Philippines TL | alternate-timelines.com

PROLOGUE: WHAT HAS HAPPENED HERE SO FAR Notes: This is going to be the second reboot of the original "Rogue Generals", most

alternate-timelines.com

 

[AstroRangerBeans]

Would the POD also ensure that JFK Jr. survives beyond 1999?
Would Kurt Cobain survive as well?

What about Marilyn Manson, Guns n' Roses, and others?

I wonder how post-4/10 impact could change how it would influence music genres, including hip-hop, given that America was affected by nuclear blasts in some places and massive panic that repeated the memories of the 1992 riots.

 

[Pax_Nihil]

Correct but incomplete. I have generally seen two variants of the 2ACW which can be summed up like this:

-Variant “Reds Kaiserreich”:

It takes place in the 1930s. Usually an even worse Great Depression is used as an excuse, or some other super complicated economic-political explanation and in many cases it seems that not even the author stopped to think about it.

This means that somehow “the communists” (for some reason many of them will insist that they are not communists and will refer to themselves by other names, like claiming to be trade unionists, etc.) start to skyrocket their popular support to extremes where, in just two years, they go from being an absolutely irrelevant party to being literally the favorite (if not the only one with any chance of winning) contender in the race for the Presidency and sweeping popular support. (Bonus points if the following names are mentioned in the story: “Eugene Debs”, “Daniel DeLeon”, and “unionism”).

Naturally as well, the other politicians will only see as the most appropriate solution for this to raise the swastika in DC, proclaim themselves fascists, and carry out a coup, in addition to openly deploying federal troops to start massacring "hotbeds of communists". Of course, no one who is not part of the syndicalist faction will voice the slightest objection or opposition to such plans. On the contrary, they will be among the first to support such plans and to cry out for foreign support in general and from the British Empire and Nazi Germany in particular.

This, of course, means that this conflict very quickly turns into “the battle between the American Communists and their enemies, the American Nazis” because all the other factions have either been killed or suddenly decided that Australia and Britain are very welcoming at this time of year.

Often, to build on the American trope of “our allies are treacherous and are eager to cut ties with us and attack us at the first opportunity”, the rest of the powers of Europe will decide to focus their efforts on deploying huge numbers of troops in support of the American fascists and against the communists.

Very occasionally the authors will try to give various very poorly elaborated economic reasons for this, but they will almost never be done; it is more common to simply say that European politicians believe that the American Revolution will result in other similar rebellions breaking out in their own country, unless they crush the American Revolution.

Of course, this revolution ends with the communists winning even against the odds, exterminating large numbers of their enemies in mass purges akin to Mao's Cultural Revolution (history will portray this as just and necessary to uphold revolution and American peace) and destroying all traces that the United States of America ever existed as an evil and reactionary regime not worth even remembering.

The "Death of America".

-Variant “Trump screwed up”.

It occurs in the 2030s at the earliest. In essence, what this variant postulates is a reverse of the above. Trump will be named and blamed as the cause of this, even if it occurs decades after his tenure. For reasons that are never developed beyond “that's how it is,” GOP politicians are told they will NEVER legitimately win an election again. This is never developed beyond vague mentions of "because economics, because demographics", considering that this is such a solid argument that it does not deserve further explanation.

What we will be presented with are all kinds of highly elaborated and increasingly apocalyptic economic and social projections, to a point where it seems that the premise is “Everything that could go wrong did go wrong. Everything that could be done wrong, was done wrong. Everyone who tried to do something to fix the problems was ignored, ridiculed, killed, or all at once."

The thing is, members of the Republican Party decide that instead of trying to do something to re-engage voters, their best chance to stay in power is to... stage a coup and seize power by force. Yes really. They'll be so idiots in this stories.

Naturally, this coup fails, but that's exactly what the script said had to happen. The reason for this is that the author needs an excuse to ensure that the Federal Government remains solidly and completely in the hands of the Democratic Party and its more radical variants.

Of course, this is intended for the coup leaders to immediately start a Second Civil War; they will raise the swastika in Cheyenne (so to speak a capital), proclaim the "Nazi States of America", and immediately proceed to organize the genocide of anyone they consider does not fit their vision of “a pure white America”.

This has the dual purpose of making it clear to us beyond any doubt that the members of the Nazi States of America are the bad guys (as if there were any doubt), as well as justifying any barbaric things the Federal Government commits thereafter as "karmic retribution", "the consequences of your actions finally catch up with you", "doing what must be done", and other similar "justifications".

In foreign policy, the authors will try to square the circle and tell us at the same time three statements that could not be more contradictory.

1) The world has plunged into a brutal economic crisis which means that everyone outside of the United States is even more screwed up than the Americans themselves, and governments have a hard time continuing to exist. This crisis will somehow provoke civil wars and regional conflicts.

2) Despite point 1, Russia and China possess the resources to start and sustain an incredibly resource and manpower-expensive series of expansionist wars of aggression, while the rest of the world just watches them coming and does nothing to defend themselves.

3) Despite points 1 and 2, Russia and China openly support the Nazi States of America and proceed to send them all kinds of supplies and reinforcements, while for their part the support of the Western Powers for the Federal Government arrives in drops. (If it does, because naturally Europe decides this is an excellent time to cut all ties they had with the United States and side with China and Russia on this matter.) This will not be done for any economic or political reason, but because, naturally, "our allies are treacherous and are eager to attack us from behind at the slightest opportunity even if it hurts them more than it hurts us."

Naturally, even though the members of the Nazi States of America are explicitly racist, Russophobic and Sinophobic, they embrace the support of the People's Republic of China and Putinist Russia and accept them as their friends and allies. Also, despite this obvious foreign meddling, the story will still focus on how this is an exclusively American conflict waged for exclusively American reasons.

Insert a series of chapters describing increasingly egregious war crimes, as the Federal Government also descends into ever-increasing radicalism, like their rivals, (helped by the fact that any moderate is immediately purged or killed by right-wingers) until a point is reached where the same situation as version 1 occurs, only this time the Federal Government is left-wing and the rebel insurgency is right-wing.

Whoever wins is irrelevant, although usually the Federal Government is the one that ends up winning, because it is achieved that the United States of America as we had known it is dead.

The Death of America.

This post seems like it was belayed its proper destination in the "things that grind your gears" thread

 

[Quinkana]

This post seems like it was belayed its proper destination in the "things that grind your gears" thread

Tbf I do agree that for America to get that fucked post American civil war it'd require extraordinary circumstances.

 

[Lalli]

Would the POD also ensure that JFK Jr. survives beyond 1999?
Would Kurt Cobain survive as well?

JFK Jr's death probably is butterflied away. But taking Cobain pretty suicidal habits I doubt that he would survive ITTL. And from POD is not many months to Cobain's death.

 

[Gillan1220]

What about Marilyn Manson, Guns n' Roses, and others?

I wonder how post-4/10 impact could change how it would influence music genres, including hip-hop, given that America was affected by nuclear blasts in some places and massive panic that repeated the memories of the 1992 riots.

Probably this would also butterfly Aaliyah's death as well as Rico Yan.

JFK Jr's death probably is butterflied away. But taking Cobain pretty suicidal habits I doubt that he would survive ITTL. And from POD is not many months to Cobain's death.

Judging by the overall depressing tone of this TL, it's probably not going to help Cobain's thoughts. Even if he survived past 1994, 4/10 might prove too much for him to handle.

 

[Whiteshore]

Judging by the overall depressing tone of this TL, it's probably not going to help Cobain's thoughts. Even if he survived past 1994, 4/10 might prove too much for him to handle.

And on that note, his death IOTL was in the period between the NSF taking over Russia and the whole thing falling apart here.

 

[CalBear]

Correct but incomplete. I have generally seen two variants of the 2ACW which can be summed up like this:

-Variant “Reds Kaiserreich”:

It takes place in the 1930s. Usually an even worse Great Depression is used as an excuse, or some other super complicated economic-political explanation and in many cases it seems that not even the author stopped to think about it.

This means that somehow “the communists” (for some reason many of them will insist that they are not communists and will refer to themselves by other names, like claiming to be trade unionists, etc.) start to skyrocket their popular support to extremes where, in just two years, they go from being an absolutely irrelevant party to being literally the favorite (if not the only one with any chance of winning) contender in the race for the Presidency and sweeping popular support. (Bonus points if the following names are mentioned in the story: “Eugene Debs”, “Daniel DeLeon”, and “unionism”).

Naturally as well, the other politicians will only see as the most appropriate solution for this to raise the swastika in DC, proclaim themselves fascists, and carry out a coup, in addition to openly deploying federal troops to start massacring "hotbeds of communists". Of course, no one who is not part of the syndicalist faction will voice the slightest objection or opposition to such plans. On the contrary, they will be among the first to support such plans and to cry out for foreign support in general and from the British Empire and Nazi Germany in particular.

This, of course, means that this conflict very quickly turns into “the battle between the American Communists and their enemies, the American Nazis” because all the other factions have either been killed or suddenly decided that Australia and Britain are very welcoming at this time of year.

Often, to build on the American trope of “our allies are treacherous and are eager to cut ties with us and attack us at the first opportunity”, the rest of the powers of Europe will decide to focus their efforts on deploying huge numbers of troops in support of the American fascists and against the communists.

Very occasionally the authors will try to give various very poorly elaborated economic reasons for this, but they will almost never be done; it is more common to simply say that European politicians believe that the American Revolution will result in other similar rebellions breaking out in their own country, unless they crush the American Revolution.

Of course, this revolution ends with the communists winning even against the odds, exterminating large numbers of their enemies in mass purges akin to Mao's Cultural Revolution (history will portray this as just and necessary to uphold revolution and American peace) and destroying all traces that the United States of America ever existed as an evil and reactionary regime not worth even remembering.

The "Death of America".

-Variant “Trump screwed up”.

It occurs in the 2030s at the earliest. In essence, what this variant postulates is a reverse of the above. Trump will be named and blamed as the cause of this, even if it occurs decades after his tenure. For reasons that are never developed beyond “that's how it is,” GOP politicians are told they will NEVER legitimately win an election again. This is never developed beyond vague mentions of "because economics, because demographics", considering that this is such a solid argument that it does not deserve further explanation.

What we will be presented with are all kinds of highly elaborated and increasingly apocalyptic economic and social projections, to a point where it seems that the premise is “Everything that could go wrong did go wrong. Everything that could be done wrong, was done wrong. Everyone who tried to do something to fix the problems was ignored, ridiculed, killed, or all at once."

The thing is, members of the Republican Party decide that instead of trying to do something to re-engage voters, their best chance to stay in power is to... stage a coup and seize power by force. Yes really. They'll be so idiots in this stories.

Naturally, this coup fails, but that's exactly what the script said had to happen. The reason for this is that the author needs an excuse to ensure that the Federal Government remains solidly and completely in the hands of the Democratic Party and its more radical variants.

Of course, this is intended for the coup leaders to immediately start a Second Civil War; they will raise the swastika in Cheyenne (so to speak a capital), proclaim the "Nazi States of America", and immediately proceed to organize the genocide of anyone they consider does not fit their vision of “a pure white America”.

This has the dual purpose of making it clear to us beyond any doubt that the members of the Nazi States of America are the bad guys (as if there were any doubt), as well as justifying any barbaric things the Federal Government commits thereafter as "karmic retribution", "the consequences of your actions finally catch up with you", "doing what must be done", and other similar "justifications".

In foreign policy, the authors will try to square the circle and tell us at the same time three statements that could not be more contradictory.

1) The world has plunged into a brutal economic crisis which means that everyone outside of the United States is even more screwed up than the Americans themselves, and governments have a hard time continuing to exist. This crisis will somehow provoke civil wars and regional conflicts.

2) Despite point 1, Russia and China possess the resources to start and sustain an incredibly resource and manpower-expensive series of expansionist wars of aggression, while the rest of the world just watches them coming and does nothing to defend themselves.

3) Despite points 1 and 2, Russia and China openly support the Nazi States of America and proceed to send them all kinds of supplies and reinforcements, while for their part the support of the Western Powers for the Federal Government arrives in drops. (If it does, because naturally Europe decides this is an excellent time to cut all ties they had with the United States and side with China and Russia on this matter.) This will not be done for any economic or political reason, but because, naturally, "our allies are treacherous and are eager to attack us from behind at the slightest opportunity even if it hurts them more than it hurts us."

Naturally, even though the members of the Nazi States of America are explicitly racist, Russophobic and Sinophobic, they embrace the support of the People's Republic of China and Putinist Russia and accept them as their friends and allies. Also, despite this obvious foreign meddling, the story will still focus on how this is an exclusively American conflict waged for exclusively American reasons.

Insert a series of chapters describing increasingly egregious war crimes, as the Federal Government also descends into ever-increasing radicalism, like their rivals, (helped by the fact that any moderate is immediately purged or killed by right-wingers) until a point is reached where the same situation as version 1 occurs, only this time the Federal Government is left-wing and the rebel insurgency is right-wing.

Whoever wins is irrelevant, although usually the Federal Government is the one that ends up winning, because it is achieved that the United States of America as we had known it is dead.

The Death of America.

Version two is current politics, hence it belongs in Chat.

 

[Quinkana]

Since Harry doesn't lost his mother that young he probably would be pretty different person. Perhaps he is more willingful to take part on BRF. So probably not marriage with Meghan Markle and Harry stays in Britain. If he still marries someone, I just hope that he gives for his children better names. It took me long time before I stopped thinking Archie Bunker and I just don't really like name Lilibeth.

Hey Archibald and Lilibeth are perfectly good names! (My children are gonna hate me for the names I'm gonna give them)

Seriously I do think that Harry is much more willing to follow the family line if Diana does so as wounds heal and everyone moves on with their lives. Perhaps he leaves the family but doesn't leave with bad terms.

 

[Lalli]

Hey Archibald and Lilibeth are perfectly good names! (My children are gonna hate me for the names I'm gonna give them)

Seriously I do think that Harry is much more willing to follow the family line if Diana does so as wounds heal and everyone moves on with their lives. Perhaps he leaves the family but doesn't leave with bad terms.

Perhaps Harry picks completely full-day military career.