The Chrysanthemum Under the Cross: Christian Japan's Timeline

[Mitridates the Great]

I don't understand how your POD could have changed Europe so much, but I fear that many of the thing described here are not plausible. For example the centralization of the HRE and extinction of the Electorates is something that would unify Germany against the Emperor and foreign intervention would abound even more, that is why it would not even be considered by the Habsburgs. Giving Netherlands away just after they were reconquered also makes little sense for Spain. Portugal doesn't need to move against Spain if Spain doesn't drag them to their wars.

In reality, it was rather Portugal that was dragging Spain into its wars.

It turns out that the British and Dutch decided to forget that Portugal was supposed to be their ally and moved to attack and seize their comparatively poorly defended (compared to Spanish) colonies.

The origin of the secession was that Spain began to get fed up with having to pay for the defense of Portugal and asked them to contribute to the war effort, which was apparently so intolerable for the Portuguese nobility (How dare they demand that we pay for the defense of our own colonies!) who preferred to spend triple financing a war of independence.

Of course, London and Amsterdam were delighted with this because it allowed them to grab more land from Portugal and to trap Portugal with onerous loans.

Although since we are talking about the neighbors, how is the rest of Asia taking the fact that Japan has fallen into the hands of the Kurishitan?
Are there any exiles on the Asian mainland claiming to be the rightful ruler of Japan?

 

[TimTurner]

Is anyone here good at making AI images? I wanted to make some AI images of paintings of Emperor Shiro and other figures from this timeline in 17th century European paintings, but the best result I got was this:
View attachment 852806 View attachment 852807
@CASSICTOR2 @Diego @TimTurner @Aluma @Quinkana

They look nice!

 

[The Gybson Boy]

I don't understand how your POD could have changed Europe so much,

There isn't a PoD in a specific year here, the PoD is a larger number of Christian influences and conversions in Japan in 1637, things started to change since the 1570's, which is a long time for things outside Japan to change, I decided to change things in Europe to make the timeline more interesting. the specific PoD that changes Europe is that during the Day of the Dupes, Cardinal Richelieu is dismissed by Louis XIII on behalf of his mother and the Queen Mother's party takes over the government, leaving France out of the War and consequently taking the victory of the catholic league over the protestants

For example the centralization of the HRE and extinction of the Electorates is something that would unify Germany against the Emperor and foreign intervention would abound even more, that is why it would not even be considered by the Habsburgs.

Yes, it was considered, unifying the Germanic Holy Roman Empire or at least imposing its authority on its members was always one of the goals of the Habsburgs of the 17th and 18th centuries, the problem is that in OTL they were always very unlucky to lose that any of the wars that would allow it, the emperor and the empire itself were very centralized before the Thirty Years' War, something that was reversed afterwards. Here would be the perfect opportunity to centralize the empire at once, with most of its enemies within the empire destroyed by the war and France with a favorable government, in 1639, when the war is over, the only electorate in conditions to face- them would be Bavaria, which doesn't exactly have a good reason to rebel since they were one of the main winners of the war winning the lands and titles of the Electoral Palatinate, the Holy Empire is no longer an elective monarchy since the 15th century, ending with the electorates will not be a problem at all

Giving Netherlands away just after they were reconquered also makes little sense for Spain.

The Spaniards have been fighting with the Dutch for the last 70 years, that's long enough to realize that running Holland from Madrid is very expensive and difficult, giving the Netherlands a proper Habsburg Catholic government is the best thing to do here

 

[Diego]

In reality, it was rather Portugal that was dragging Spain into its wars.

Definitely not the case, Portugal wouldn't be at war with the Dutch and the English if they were not in Personal Union with Spain.

The origin of the secession was that Spain began to get fed up with having to pay for the defense of Portugal and asked them to contribute to the war effort, which was apparently so intolerable for the Portuguese nobility (How dare they demand that we pay for the defense of our own colonies!) who preferred to spend triple financing a war of independence.

Since the Spanish completely neglected the defense of Portugal it was justified of them to get angry, also the king of Spain disrespected what was agreed on the Cortes of Tomar.

The Spaniards have been fighting with the Dutch for the last 70 years, that's long enough to realize that running Holland from Madrid is very expensive and difficult, giving the Netherlands a proper Habsburg Catholic government is the best thing to do here

That is not how they thought at the time and certainly would not be how the Spanish would see things, after subduing the rebellion just giving it for nothing would be out of question, also your assumption is wrong, it is not expensive to run the Netherlands from Madrid, it is expensive to fight a war against them, but since the Dutch were so utterly crushed that they got reannexed things become much more simple for Madrid.

Yes, it was considered, unifying the Germanic Holy Roman Empire or at least imposing its authority on its members was always one of the goals of the Habsburgs of the 17th and 18th centuries, the problem is that in OTL they were always very unlucky to lose that any of the wars that would allow it, the emperor and the empire itself were very centralized before the Thirty Years' War, something that was reversed afterwards. Here would be the perfect opportunity to centralize the empire at once, with most of its enemies within the empire destroyed by the war and France with a favorable government, in 1639, when the war is over, the only electorate in conditions to face- them would be Bavaria, which doesn't exactly have a good reason to rebel since they were one of the main winners of the war winning the lands and titles of the Electoral Palatinate, the Holy Empire is no longer an elective monarchy since the 15th century, ending with the electorates will not be a problem at all

It was never considered, not at this level, the most radical thing the emperor tried was to oust the legitimate rulers and put his allies on their thrones, and that received enough backlash. Also about Bavaria they have the biggest reason to rebel, they were royally screwed by the emperor here, they won and were threated like vanquished foes, they got palatinate, but instead of becoming the electors they were in practice annexed by Austria and demoted back to their previous title. Also the fact that the Habsburgs were reelected time and again doesn't mean that the Holy Roman Empire is not an elective monarchy, if that was the case the emperors would not give so much money in bribes to the electors.

 

[Thisisanaccount]

Watched!

 

[Taunay]

Definitely not the case, Portugal wouldn't be at war with the Dutch and the English if they were not in Personal Union with Spain.


Since the Spanish completely neglected the defense of Portugal it was justified of them to get angry, also the king of Spain disrespected what was agreed on the Cortes of Tomar.



That is not how they thought at the time and certainly would not be how the Spanish would see things, after subduing the rebellion just giving it for nothing would be out of question, also your assumption is wrong, it is not expensive to run the Netherlands from Madrid, it is expensive to fight a war against them, but since the Dutch were so utterly crushed that they got reannexed things become much more simple for Madrid.


It was never considered, not at this level, the most radical thing the emperor tried was to oust the legitimate rulers and put his allies on their thrones, and that received enough backlash. Also about Bavaria they have the biggest reason to rebel, they were royally screwed by the emperor here, they won and were threated like vanquished foes, they got palatinate, but instead of becoming the electors they were in practice annexed by Austria and demoted back to their previous title. Also the fact that the Habsburgs were reelected time and again doesn't mean that the Holy Roman Empire is not an elective monarchy, if that was the case the emperors would not give so much money in bribes to the electors.

Agreed on all points, Spain was the one dragging Portugal into their wars and making the Portuguese protect the Spanish colonies (especially the Philippines). A big portion of the Spanish Armada was comprised of Portuguese ships and crewmen.

 

[Geekhis Khan]

Interesting, and Watched. I've been curious about a more open/Spanish influenced Japan since first learning about pre-Tokugawa trade. I'll let others sort out the mess of the HRE (the more I learn about it, the less I know), but I'm curious as to:

1. How this will affect world trade, particularly Pacific trade. Presumably this will be an open Japan with a Christian Merchant class likely to travel fairly far (Indonesia, India, perhaps even the ME or West Africa) and it seems inevitable that the Spanish Black Ships will continue to ply Japanese ports. How they influence each other will be interesting. I imagine Japanese merchants/missionaries joining Spanish crews, and likely taking notes. Will the Japanese merchants try to develop deep sea ships and navigation techniques?
2. How long the Spanish/Japanese love affair lasts, or when/if there's conflict, such as over Mainland trade with China.
3. How/when Japanese Catholicism starts to diverge with Roman Orthodoxy, which given the distance and cultural differences seems inevitable. Also, if we end up with competing evangelical/missionary efforts in the mainland. Presumably this ties in heavily with #2.
4. How this will affect Japanese culture beyond Religion. Will there be more Spanish influence?
5. What other powers beyond the Spanish start getting involved, when, and how.

On #4 I had an old thread on Alt History Cuisine where I imagined a Spanish-influenced Japan and trans-Pacific trade leading to such delectable treats as "Sabisushi" and "Sabisushimi" (ceviche meets sushi/sashimi, respectively), noodles entering South American cuisine (particularly Peru & Chile), American crops entering Japanese cuisine sooner, exchanges of teriyaki and adobo and mole and other sauce techniques/ingredients in various trans-oceanic forms, and of course the infamous Takotaco.

 

[TimTurner]

Interesting, and Watched. I've been curious about a more open/Spanish influenced Japan since first learning about pre-Tokugawa trade. I'll let others sort out the mess of the HRE (the more I learn about it, the less I know), but I'm curious as to:

1. How this will affect world trade, particularly Pacific trade. Presumably this will be an open Japan with a Christian Merchant class likely to travel fairly far (Indonesia, India, perhaps even the ME or West Africa) and it seems inevitable that the Spanish Black Ships will continue to ply Japanese ports. How they influence each other will be interesting. I imagine Japanese merchants/missionaries joining Spanish crews, and likely taking notes. Will the Japanese merchants try to develop deep sea ships and navigation techniques?
2. How long the Spanish/Japanese love affair lasts, or when/if there's conflict, such as over Mainland trade with China.
3. How/when Japanese Catholicism starts to diverge with Roman Orthodoxy, which given the distance and cultural differences seems inevitable. Also, if we end up with competing evangelical/missionary efforts in the mainland. Presumably this ties in heavily with #2.
4. How this will affect Japanese culture beyond Religion. Will there be more Spanish influence?
5. What other powers beyond the Spanish start getting involved, when, and how.

On #4 I had an old thread on Alt History Cuisine where I imagined a Spanish-influenced Japan and trans-Pacific trade leading to such delectable treats as "Sabisushi" and "Sabisushimi" (ceviche meets sushi/sashimi, respectively), noodles entering South American cuisine (particularly Peru & Chile), American crops entering Japanese cuisine sooner, exchanges of teriyaki and adobo and mole and other sauce techniques/ingredients in various trans-oceanic forms, and of course the infamous Takotaco.

Your post here reminded me of this guy.

 

[HeavyMetal]

I'm thinking the Spanish will be very interested on stablishing an alliance with a Catholic Japan... and what is the traditional Hapsburg method of making alliances?
You may want to begin thinking on which girl is going to be sent there,.

 

[Mitridates the Great]

I'm thinking the Spanish will be very interested on stablishing an alliance with a Catholic Japan... and what is the traditional Hapsburg method of making alliances?
You may want to begin thinking on which girl is going to be sent there,.

Maybe with the next Shiro Emperor. The current one is already married (with a girl from the old imperial family) and I doubt that he will try to tempt fate by taking a second wife (something that would already be frowned upon in a Shinto emperor but would be doubly frowned upon in a Christian emperor).

 

[HeavyMetal]

Maybe with the next Shiro Emperor. The current one is already married (with a girl from the old imperial family) and I doubt that he will try to tempt fate by taking a second wife (something that would already be frowned upon in a Shinto emperor but would be doubly frowned upon in a Christian emperor).

Of course, I was talking about the heir, when there's one.

I don't think the timeline fits, but now imagine for a second that the heirs of such marriage are the first in line after Charles II. That would be fun.

 

[CASSICTOR2]

what will be the legacy of Emperor Shiro after his death? not only in Japan, but in the Asia Continent in general, especially with a Christians viewpoint.

Also, this is my drawing of irl Shiro and soon I will make another one but with TLCUC style

 

[The Gybson Boy]

Of course, I was talking about the heir, when there's one.

I don't think the timeline fits, but now imagine for a second that the heirs of such marriage are the first in line after Charles II. That would be fun.

Carlos II OTL does not exist here, the European PoD meant that Felipe IV never married Mariana of Austria. The heirs of TTL Spain are Baltasar Carlos and his children

 

[The Gybson Boy]

Absolutely fantastic art done by @CASSICTOR2 for this Timeline​

 

[CASSICTOR2]

Are you planning to show future emperors of Japan, mate and if so, I wonder what they be like compared to the OG Tokugawa emperors in OTL? I hope they be as interesting and fun as Shiro I

Also one I been thinking in a few days, I definitely see in the future Christian/ Historical edits of Emperor Shiro I and maybe his descendants (if they have the same technology as OTL)

I know that All of the shorts is just Baldwin’s edit but I can honestly see a Historical Movie about Shiro during the Kirishitan Uprising of 1637 and Someone definitely going to edited like these shorts

 

[CASSICTOR2]

Is everyone still here and ready want more content with this TL?

 

[TimTurner]

Is everyone still here and ready want more content with this TL?

Still here.

 

[traveller76]

Still here.

Same

 

[MegaByyte]

Same

Same

 

[Quinkana]

Is everyone still here and ready want more content with this TL?

I still do.

Even if I don't always answer I'll be watching.