The Buffer Corridor of Europe

Strategos' Risk · Jul 2, 2005

Is it just me, or is there a group of nations running down the border between western and eastern Europe, from Finland to Poland to the Balkan lands of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, that are just constantly used as both a buffer between the two sections, and as a result are usually picked upon and have never become powers of their own?

What if they were the powers?

Nik · Jul 2, 2005

Wars on two fronts ??

Wars on two fronts ??

Tetsu · Jul 2, 2005

Are you imagining along the lines of having the main power bloc of Europe be something like Croatia, Poland, Bulgaria, etc?

Strategos' Risk · Jul 2, 2005

Yeah. The countries of eastern Europe that's usually made into either second-rate, or stereotypically known for being conquered or at least made pawns between the western and eastern powers. Czechoslovakia, Poland, maybe Finland, and the Balkan nations come to mind.

BurningWickerman · Jul 2, 2005

Russia would have to be weak and the western powers uncaring.
If the middle powers were strong however and Russia was weak it would probably take over russia (depending on the time period), and it would just turn back too West v.s East.

Geography always wins.

Mayhem · Jul 2, 2005

Thing is, they've got the arse end of Europe, metaphorically and strategically; a country would need to cover a lot of ground in that area to be a viable great power, maybe along the Prussia-Dardanelles axis, but there's a lot of stuff in between and a lot of raiders on their way through. Because the Black and Baltic Seas are both fenced in, these areas don't have much chance for naval empires, and we all know how well massive land-based empires have gone

.
The only thing I can really think of is a Prussia reaches down through Poland towards Romania thread post-Napoleonic era, but I'm still at a loss regarding Belarus, Ukraine, Baltics etc (IIRC, they've been under Russian control for an awfully long time anyway).

Nicole · Jul 2, 2005

Well, if you find a way to merge Austria-Hungary with Poland-Lithuania (Preferably at it's height), then you already have most of the land under control...

carlton_bach · Jul 2, 2005

I think if you want something like that to happen, you need the POD to be cultural more than political. Most of East Central Europe is historically relatively poor, feudalised, disunited and badly organised compared to the West (and that *is* saying something), and it lacks the sheer numbers of Russia.

But when you think of it, Prussia is the arse end of Germany, and look where two centuries of unrelenting discipline, militarism, education, and brutal Macchiavellian conquest got them.

A Polish Hohenzollern, mayhap?

Tetsu · Jul 2, 2005

Imajin said:
Well, if you find a way to merge Austria-Hungary with Poland-Lithuania (Preferably at it's height), then you already have most of the land under control...

That would certainly be a very large nation...

Strategos' Risk · Jul 2, 2005

Question: While I know that it's natural such a region might be created in geopolitical affairs, does everyone agree with me that the "Finland-Poland-Balkans" region seem to be a buffer between west Europe and Russia, to be made the biznatch in the great powers' machinations?

Mayhem · Jul 2, 2005

Hell yeah; those Czechs, Slovaks, Poles, Belorussians and Ukrainians are just askin' for a whuppin'.

Beowulf2005 · Jul 2, 2005

Simple. Have the ASBs give Poland a natural defensible border, and no problem.

Gladi · Jul 3, 2005

Bright day
YEAAAAARGH, twenty minutes of writing damned to spend eternity in Acheron.

We not always whipping boys.

Poles: problem with rule, more wars with Sweden?

Czechs: Ottocar II- holy roman emperor, sons Carl IV (holy roman emperor) born with exchange abilities compaatively to otl.

Hungarians: Turks

Ukrainiens: Mongols

Slovaks: Magyars

Otis Tarda · Jul 3, 2005

Oh, c'mon, you dammned-lucky-Westerners.

Czechs: tilll Biala Hora (correct me, Gladi) were one of the best army in Europe. Just remind Hussites, feared by all neighbours.
BTW, Czech mercenaries defended Marienburg during Thirteen Years War (between Poles and Teutonic Knights). Succesfully, till they had beed ceased to pay.

Poland: till 16th century, we were a local power after all. Then, we just had bad luck with neighbours.

Finland: small, brave nation. They hadn't existed till beginning of 19th century, then were made by a poet

, managed to get autonomy - and, in 20th century they managed to defend themselves from bolsheviks twice. More respect, please.

Molobo · Jul 3, 2005

that are just constantly used as both a buffer between the two sections, and as a result are usually picked upon and have never become powers of their own?

Well Poland was a major European country when it formed Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

As to the problem-it was long spotted by politicians of the region.There was a concept of Miedzymorze confederation by Jozef Pilsudski for example that would see a alliance of those countries which would by joining forces be able to fend off both Germany and Russia.There was also the concept of Little Entente etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miedzymorze

A late version of the concept was attempted by interwar Polish Minister of Foreign Affairs Józef Beck, a Piłsudski protege. It envisioned a Central European union as also including Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Scandinavia, the Baltic states, Italy, Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia and Greece: thus stretching not only west-east from the Baltic Sea to the Black Sea, but north-south from the Arctic Ocean to the Mediterranean Sea. Such a polity, comprising some 150 million central Europeans, with a common foreign policy, might have been a force to be reckoned with by Nazi Germany in the west and the Soviet Union in the east.

these areas don't have much chance for naval empires

IIRC Swedes tried to control the whole Baltic by and make it their inner sea.That would force them to have a strong navy and control of central european countries.There was a Swedish-Polish royal family

The only thing I can really think of is a Prussia reaches down through Poland towards Romania thread post-Napoleonic era, but I'm still at a loss regarding Belarus, Ukraine, Baltics etc (IIRC, they've been under Russian control for an awfully long time anyway).

Since 18 century really.
As to POD, there could be also a possibility of Polish-Lithuanian-Hungarian Kingdom
http://www.poloniatoday.com/history4.htm

The successful development of Poland in the 15th century, military victories, development of the economy and culture, strengthened the dynasty of the Jagiellons. In the latter part of the 15th century they were gaining the upper hand in the competition against the Luxemburgers and the Habsburgs.

Following the short-lived dynastic union of Poland and Hungary (1440-1444), Casimir the Jagiellon's son, Ladislaus, sat on the Czech throne in 1471 and on the Hungarian in 1490. So, at the turn of 16th century, Poland and Lithuania, as well as Bohemia and Hungary, were under the rule of the two lines of the Jagiellonian dynasty. In addition, part of Mazovia, still continuing its independence, and Teutonic Prussia, were fiefdoms of Poland. The nation's influence went as far as Moldavia.