The British Revolution, collaborative TL discussion.

libbrit

Banned
Ive often thought that the closest the UK has ever been to a French style revolution might have been the early 1800s with the pressures that lead to the Reform Acts, the Peterloo Massacre,discontent with an unpopular monarchy and mass technological and thus cultural change as populations decamped from the country side into the overcrowded cities.

Im looking for anyone who might be interested to give ideas and suggestions, and general debate with an aim of a collaborative time line

Thoughts?
 
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Ive often thought that the clossest the UK has ever been to a French style revolution might have been the early 1800s with the pressures that lead to the Reform Acts, the Peterloo Massacre,discontent with an unpopular monarchy and mass technological and thus cultural change as populations decamped from the country side into the overcrowded cities.

Im looking for anyone who might be interested to give ideas and suggestions, and general debate with an aim of a collaborative time line

Thoughts?

It's definitely an interesting idea. OTL has elements that might make a revolution possible...and George IV was one of the most unpopular monarchs to sit on the British throne
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
I've always liked a POD that sees Ernest Augustus take the throne. If anything could get the Brits to revolt, it'd be King Ernie.
 

libbrit

Banned
It's definitely an interesting idea. OTL has elements that might make a revolution possible...and George IV was one of the most unpopular monarchs to sit on the British throne

Indeed-its an interesting and useful time-economic dislocation following the Napoleonic wars, the Chartists and Luddites, as well as the affore mentioned imbecile on the throne, plus the above mentioned social changes
 
...and George IV was one of the most unpopular monarchs to sit on the British throne

What if, on August 2nd, 1786, Margaret Nicholson manages to stab King George III with a sharper, rustier knife?

Now you've got a younger King George IV who is up to his eyeballs in debt (and will have to borrow even more money for his coronation) ; who is living in sin with a Catholic mistress ; and who will appoint Charles Fox as PM, on the eve of the French revolution. That can't be good...
 
The Birmingham Political Union offers a lot of potential in this area of inquiry.

Quoth Wikipedia:
Unlike some other radical political organisations of the period, the Birmingham Political Union used mainly law-abiding, non-violent methods, and had a greater claim to be a 'respectable' movement than most such organisations. However, the organisation had a large membership, and the government of the time feared the consequences if it took up arms; during the Days of May in 1832, when 200,000 people attended a meeting of the Union, rumours that the Union would take up arms contributed to the pressure on the house of Lords to pass the 1832 Reform Act.
 

libbrit

Banned
What if, on August 2nd, 1786, Margaret Nicholson manages to stab King George III with a sharper, rustier knife?

Now you've got a younger King George IV who is up to his eyeballs in debt (and will have to borrow even more money for his coronation) ; who is living in sin with a Catholic mistress ; and who will appoint Charles Fox as PM, on the eve of the French revolution. That can't be good...

Interesting idea-although George III was very popular here, wouldnt the memory of the `martyr king` dampen down any discontent with his son?

Well, for a while perhaps
 
I'm studying British political history from 1750-1850 at the moment so the idea definitely interests me! Personally, I think that the prospect of a French-style Revolution is unlikely, Parliament was quite responsive to outside interests and English radicalism during the period wasn't very strong or cohesive. It's easy to overstate the effect of economic change on political stability, although a lot of popular disorder resulted from economic unrest it never created a coherent political movement. The great extra-parliamentary force of the time was organised Dissent, which worked within the constitution through petitioning Parliament for Repeal and links to the Whigs. It was never large enough to form a revolutionary movement.
 
Thomas Paine as a founding father of the British revolution with a republican government and written constitution.
Crisis.
Possible with a successful 1798 rebellion lead by the united Irishmen in Ireland first and the defect of Charles Cornwallis in Ireland and or a successfully rebellion in Scotland by Societies of United Scotsmen had existed from the early 1790s.
 
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I'm studying British political history from 1750-1850 at the moment so the idea definitely interests me! Personally, I think that the prospect of a French-style Revolution is unlikely, Parliament was quite responsive to outside interests and English radicalism during the period wasn't very strong or cohesive. It's easy to overstate the effect of economic change on political stability, although a lot of popular disorder resulted from economic unrest it never created a coherent political movement. The great extra-parliamentary force of the time was organised Dissent, which worked within the constitution through petitioning Parliament for Repeal and links to the Whigs. It was never large enough to form a revolutionary movement.

I imagine a British revolution would involve a large chunk of parliament siding with the revolutionaries after some sort of constitutional crisis.
 
Having thought over it some more, here's my take:

- Most popular protest during the period was conservative, e.g. the "moral economy" food riots and the persecution of religious minorities (the Gordon Riots). The one genuine radical movement, the Painite radicals of the 1790s and 1800s were a marginal group with little popular support. The one notable occasion where a radical protest succeeded in achieving change and gained mass support was the Wilkes Affair, which included:
1) A charismatic figure who embodies a particular ideology (in this case Wilkes and Liberty)
2) A popular issue which metropolitan radicals and moderate country-gentlemen can unite on (civil liberties, Bute's abuse of the constitution through secret influence)
3) Support from the London and provincial press, thereby turning Wilkes' cause into a national movement
4) Poor economic conditions/bad harvests contributing to political malaise
5) Symbolism which ordinary people can easily understand
6) An exaggerated government response to an imagined threat of insurrection, which simply fueled further protest.

- Wilkes was a constitutionalist who was arguing that Parliament had abused the constitution. It would be very difficult to see a situation in which a revolutionary movement could be successful. But if may be possible if the following occurs:

1) An extremely severe economic crisis and political malaise (unpopular Ministry and King, Britain at war etc), but the political elite isn't able to claim the mantle of patriotism like the post-French Revolution political climate OTL.
2) A charismatic constitutionalist radical appeals against the government on an unpopular issue (perhaps opposition to the militia in the time of an unpopular war, which would gain support amongst both cosmopolitian metropolitan radicals and the country gentry). He utilises patriotic rhetoric against the government.
3) The radical oversteps the mark and is accused by the government of sedition/treason. A court case takes place, and the press and the country rally behind him.
4) Widespread economic and social disorder, and the army is deployed to restore order but mutinies (the navy did actually mutiny in 1797, the closest Britain got to a revolutionary situation in the 1790s)
5) Parliament unwisely rejects conciliation on unpopular issues such as conscription. The Whig opposition is too small, marginalised and unpopular to carry the baton of reform.
6) Radicals seize the initiative and form an anti-Parliament (was a common idea amongst radicals from the 1770s to the 1840s), claiming to represent "the people" and based on universal manhood suffrage or at least a radical extension of the franchise.

Then:

7a) The monarch and Parliament compromise with the radicals, leading to a constitutional reform bill in which the franchise is radically extended and seats are redistributed. (Something like thre 1867 Reform Act)
7b) The monarch and Parliament unwisely decide to shut the Anti-Parliament down, leading to a popular uprising in London, the defeat of the army and the establishment of the Anti-Parliament as the new government of Britain. Perhaps the monarch is forced to abdicate in favour of his heir, or the monarchy is abolished altogether.
7c) The Anti-Parliament radicals bicker amongst themselves, whilst the monarchy and Parliament eventually restore order and paint the Anti-Parliament as a revolutionary and/or foreign conspiracy. Parliament eventually wins out.
 
If there's a revolution/civil war in Britain during the 1830s what's the likelihood of the U.S. trying to push their luck with regards to the boundary disputes in New Brunswick and the Oregon Country?
 
If there's a revolution/civil war in Britain during the 1830s what's the likelihood of the U.S. trying to push their luck with regards to the boundary disputes in New Brunswick and the Oregon Country?

Probably high. The more interesting question for me is: what's the chance that - probably after a weak period of military stumbling as all revolutionary governments experience - the British Republican government then attempts to go all levee-en-masse on the Americans to take them back? After all, Revolutionary governments aren't known for their calm and reasoned responses to being militarily challenged, nor to accepting defeat without a grudge...
 
Probably high. The more interesting question for me is: what's the chance that - probably after a weak period of military stumbling as all revolutionary governments experience - the British Republican government then attempts to go all levee-en-masse on the Americans to take them back? After all, Revolutionary governments aren't known for their calm and reasoned responses to being militarily challenged, nor to accepting defeat without a grudge...
Hell, America would try to take Canada in all this chaos, that's for sure... Polk would be remebered even more...
 
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