The Beer Hall Putsch suceeds!

[Scarecrow]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_Hall_Putsch

Now, there are several POD's within the actual Putsch, such as if von Kahr, von Seisser, and von Lossow did give thier support to Hitler, and they actualy tried something, like taking over Munich, and then marching onto Berlin. the only problem with this POD is that Von Kahr wanted to restore the monarchy, Hitler didnt.

Now if the Nazis manage to take Bavaria, how hard would it be for them to take the rest of Germany, perticulerly East Prussia. perhaps if the Putsch is sucessful, then a Weimar government-in-exile is set up in East Prussia?

 

[rowmaster]

I doubt it could have won, You have Bavaria now what? The Army moves in and kicks Adolf into a Treason Trial and he's hung

 

[Bismarck]

If Hitler was killed, the nazi party might have risen up anaway due to the recession of 1929, I would guess it would be under Goebbels.

 

[LordKalvan]

If Hitler was killed, the nazi party might have risen up anaway due to the recession of 1929, I would guess it would be under Goebbels.

I'd put my money on Goering, at least as a front. Or the nazi might be subsumed into another right wing formation. I agree that the 1929 recession is likely to shake the Weimar republic in any case, and open the way for a would-be dictator.

 

[Mort]

Actually, i think Germany was more i threat of turning Communist in 1929. Hitler was very skillful at gathering support, and spining truths and lies, and it all contributed to create a party that few thought would suceed when it did. Its also forgoten though, that at the same time, the communist made large gains. With out hitler, theres nothing balanceing it....

 

[panzerjay]

Weimar is proven too weak to continue, hitler mets hangman and the military take over the govenment

 

[fhaessig]

If Hitler takes power in Germany ( How? ) and begins to rearm, the french march in and occupy Germany. No WWII.

 

[Steffen]

Leaving out the propability of success of the putsch, one of the main problems for the putschists would be the march on Berlin.
From Bavaria you have to pass through Saxony and Thuringia. These two states had been put under "Reichsexekution" two weeks before the putsch, and one of the reasons was to block any bavarian adventure´s line of approach to the capital.

 

[Max Sinister]

I thought the main reason had been that the Communists had joined the governments there.

Still I don' think the Weimar republic was doomed to fail. Ludendorff also participated in the Putsch, and if it's put down, his image is damaged. I don't know whether the rightists would choose Hindenburg for the 1925 election, or whether he'd win. (IOTL, the Bavarian people's party supported him.) And there's the question whether the nazi party would still hold together without Hitler. It could split (remember Strasser) TTL. And I don't think the Communists would win - they never had more than 20 % of the votes. Even 1929 might not kill the republic, if there's a better chancellor than Brüning who screwed up the economy.

 

[Steffen]

With the main reason, you are right. The main reason was not the mere fact communists had joined the government, but to have formed and armed a paramilitary force and disobeyed orders to disband.

it seems the idea to block the bavarians was an important aspect to win over the social democrats in the cabinet,

 

[Smuz]

I'd point out that at one stage in the 1920s a right wing putsch did take Berlin. The Trade Unions brought it down with a general strike. I suspect the same might happen again.

 

[SteveW]

If Hitler did die, then the voting base of the Nazis would not grow as much, and many would probably turn to (slightly) milder nationalist parties like the DNVP.

 

[Max Sinister]

Or not voting at all, being frustrated with politics. Maybe they decide to emigrate? America? Canada? Australia? Argentine? Africa?

 

[Scarecrow]

Or not voting at all, being frustrated with politics. Maybe they decide to emigrate? America? Canada? Australia? Argentine? Africa?

i recall seeing a book at Amazon about something like this. it was where Germany fell to the communists, and Hitler, Goebels, et al emigrated to America and set up shop there, grooming thier sons to get into power...

 

[Ivan Druzhkov]

i recall seeing a book at Amazon about something like this. it was where Germany fell to the communists, and Hitler, Goebels, et al emigrated to America and set up shop there, grooming thier sons to get into power...

That would be The Resurrections, which looks like a good read.

 

[LordKalvan]

I'd point out that at one stage in the 1920s a right wing putsch did take Berlin. The Trade Unions brought it down with a general strike. I suspect the same might happen again.

That was the Kapp putsch, in 1919, which was opposed by the Spartacist insurrection in Berlin. Eventually, both actions played in favor of the Zentrum.

In 1929, Stalin is committed to "communism in a single nation", and the relations with germany are pretty good (in particular the cooperation on the military side). The dissident leftists (anarchists, Trotzkists, libertarians) where divided and had no chance to pull a coup. The danger was (and ultimately came to fruition) from the extreme right.

 

[Steffen]

That was the Kapp putsch, in 1919, which was opposed by the Spartacist insurrection in Berlin. Eventually, both actions played in favor of the Zentrum.

Sorry, but the spartacist insurrection came in december 1918, and their leaders Luxemburg and Liebknecht were neutralized on jan.15, 1919.

The Kapp putsch was in march 1920.

How did these events played in favor of the Zentrum?

 

[LordKalvan]

Sorry, but the spartacist insurrection came in december 1918, and their leaders Luxemburg and Liebknecht were neutralized on jan.15, 1919.

The Kapp putsch was in march 1920.

How did these events played in favor of the Zentrum?

My bad. I was off with the timing. However, when the Kapp putsch came in 1920, Ebert was able to call for a general strike from the relocated government seat in Dresden. The short duration of Kapp putsch can be interpreted as a support for the Ebert government.

 

[Vault-Scope]

National-Socialists are beaten back on their march to Berlin but weimar governement faces military takeover, which resultes in massive strikes and leftwing insurrections. Southern Germany, known as Bavaria, becomes independent.
French make the Rhineland into a vassale state, secession of western Prussia and other regions from Berlin governement. Monarchists takes over Hambuurg and from there installe puppet state of Westphalia-Hanover.
The Bavarians raises vaste armies and re-arme.
1925: Coup in Austria followed by Bavarian invasion, French protests but doesnt intervene as situation in the Rhineland is still unstable. Hungarya allies with the new entity, this alliance is known as the Central Powers.
1930: Bavarya-Austria forces the secession of Croatia and Slovenia from Yougoslavia.
1932: Czecoslovakia attacked & crushed. Slovakia becomes independent
1933: The Central Powers attacks Romania, which had stopped oil exportations a year earlier.
France & Britain condemn the move but doesn´t declare war as they have no common borders with the Central Powers.
1934: The central powers launches a massive attack into the Rhineland, within weeks they are victorious. France intervenes but their invading forces are defeated by blitzkrieg tactics.
Polish armies advances westward, against rump German military state.
1935: Second French attack is repelled after hard fightings, the Central Powers moves northward, seizing Hamburg from the British and soon faces the Polish invaders in battle.
1936: Poland is not only beaten out of German territories but invaded, Soviet-Union declares war to the central powers.
1937: Major offensive westward, Minsk and Kiev seized.
1938: Offensive against Holland and Belgium is a trappe, France is invaded and gives up.
1939: Seizure of the Caucase by the Central Powers. Soviet-Union is forced into armistice, Britain soon follows.

 

[alt_historian]

I thought the main reason had been that the Communists had joined the governments there.

Still I don' think the Weimar republic was doomed to fail. Ludendorff also participated in the Putsch, and if it's put down, his image is damaged. I don't know whether the rightists would choose Hindenburg for the 1925 election, or whether he'd win. (IOTL, the Bavarian people's party supported him.)

Well, IOTL Hindenburg was a war hero at this point, or legendary status - combine TL-191's versions of Teddy Roosevelt and General Custer, and you have about the right image...
Seriously, he was een as the man who had single-handedly saved Germany at Tannenberg: even though it was Ludendorff (actually, mostly their aide, who's name escapes me at the moment) who actually did all the work.

And there's the question whether the nazi party would still hold together without Hitler. It could split (remember Strasser) TTL. And I don't think the Communists would win - they never had more than 20 % of the votes. Even 1929 might not kill the republic, if there's a better chancellor than Brüning who screwed up the economy.

Hmm... maybe if Muller, or much better, Stresemann, don't die in 1929, they would make a better go of it... however, I think you have to change things before '29. The Weimar Republic was really only muddling along alright even in the brief boom time from 1924-29. Something that might help would be to have a President who was an active supporter of the Republic, like Wilhelm Marx, rather than someone who barely tolerated it and was willing to use the letter of it's law against the spirit of the Republic - like Hindenburg.