The Auld Union - A United Kingdom of France and Scotland

[procrastinating2much]

The United Kingdom of France and Scotland
Royaume-Uni de France et d'Ecosse



The Auld Alliance (https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofScotland/The-Auld-Alliance-France-Scotland/), originally between the Kingdom of France and the Kingdom of Scotland, dates back to 1295, created out of the shared interest between the two in preventing rapid English expansion. This alliance, by some, is considered to be the oldest friendship between two nations in history, with its peak in 1421, where 12,000 Scots fought alongside the French against the Auld Enemy of England in the Battle of Bauge, a decisive victory claiming revenge for Agincourt. The original alliance granted dual-citizenship to the French and the Scots, and a cultural bond developed over wine and French cuisine.

What if this alliance slowly lead to a greater cultural and linguistic exchange, and eventually a personal, and possibly political, union? How would this come to happen, and how would this affect the political dynamic of the world?​

 

[DanMcCollum]

Okay, you've got my interest

 

[LordTerra]

An interesting proposal. The biggest sticker would be England, unless its navally out matched to a significant degree (meaning neutered) then they are going to be hostile to the point of invading Scotland if they try and go through with the union as to them it basically looks like France is not outnumbering only them but out flanking them. Its a existential threat.

Scotland would be the other as they were unenthusiastic about union with England to the point of rebellion. For the nobility and clans to accept it then the union could end up being more de-jure then de_facto in practice.

Not an expert but those are my thoughts

 

[procrastinating2much]

An interesting proposal. The biggest sticker would be England, unless its navally out matched to a significant degree (meaning neutered) then they are going to be hostile to the point of invading Scotland if they try and go through with the union as to them it basically looks like France is not outnumbering only them but out flanking them. Its a existential threat.

Scotland would be the other as they were unenthusiastic about union with England to the point of rebellion. For the nobility and clans to accept it then the union could end up being more de-jure then de_facto in practice.

Not an expert but those are my thoughts

The Auld Alliance was originally about containing England, and if England was to become more surrounded than it already was, it would certainly look to invading Scotland. However, by 1400 it had done that twice and lost brutally despite outnumbering Scotland. Sure, maybe if Scotland was a bigger threat it might divert more soldiers to actually attempt to hold the territory, but with French support and decent diplomacy and distractions, it might not worth the effort. It might even help convince the Scottish nobility that union was necessary. Propaganda is powerful, and if the French could convince the Scots that their clan culture would be wiped out if England was able to prevent the union, regardless of how true it is, some clans may even support it.

However, you've certainly got a point. What makes this union harder is geography, culture, and language. Geography is obvious, it's much harder to connect two countries separated by another country AND a Channel than it is to connect two countries that together make one island. Scottish and English culture is also relatively similar, making the union more likely. And finally, language would lead to a divide in Scotland, with a nobility that speaks French ruling a lower class speaking Scots/English. This might be easier to manage the earlier the POD, as Scots would be less similar to English than it is in, say, the 16th century, where Scots was more of a dialect of English.

Another major challenge to a later PoD would be the religious divide. As Protestantism grew in Scotland, so too did ties with England, thus hindering a Franco-Scottish union. An early PoD, or one that leaves Scotland and/or its nobility predominantly Catholic, would be more suited to create a lasting United Kingdom.

To summerise, as a list of challenges to the United Kingdom of France and Scotland:

1. England aggression towards Scotland growing as it feels trapped between the Union
2. Lack of geographical, cultural and linguistic similarity
3. Lack of enforcement of French laws and customs within Scotland
4. Lack of support from Scottish nobility
5. The threat of rebellion within Scotland, from nobles and from clans
6. Religious divide between Catholic and Protestants

 

[kasumigenx]

A union of France and Scotland in 15th century could conquer England due to the marriage between Margaret of Scotland and Louis XI their sons would marry Marry Mary of Burgundy and Elizabeth of York.

 

[Milites]

I’ve often pondered this question myself and am thus very interested in seeing how and where you make these delicious butterflies fly. Making this union a viable centralised monarchy in the late middle ages/early modern period could be potentially very difficult, but if you manage to do so in a plausible manner, I'll be very impressed!

Also, just think of the butterflies!

 

[procrastinating2much]

Another possible idea for a PoD could be a century later. In OTL, Mary Queen of Scots famously married Francis II of France, who would die only two years after their marriage. If the King-consort of Scotland survived and Mary had a son, he would inherit both the French and Scottish throne.

This PoD has the problem of religion as if the King of Scotland was both Catholic and French, the predominantly Protestant clan leaders and nobility would perhaps revolt. While not a permanent solution, this hypothetical King could accept a Protestant Scottish government with him as King, as Mary had, so long as he ruled with moderation.

This would be a difficult time for a personal union for France as well, which is currently undergoing the second deadliest religious war in European history. The butterflies of having a different heir on the throne of France during this time may undermine the kingdom.

 

[LSCatilina]

A minor detail, but technically the heraldry of such Franco-Scottish union should likely have Scotland on dextre and France modern (and not ancient, meaning using the three fleur-de-lys pattern) on senestre; essentially for prestige reasons.

 

[Ultima Ratio]

Looks like for this to be lasting, France and Scotland have to seriously wreck Britain. I wonder if they can wreck them so hard that Scotland actually takes territory in Northern England.

 

[isabella]

Another possible idea for a PoD could be a century later. In OTL, Mary Queen of Scots famously married Francis II of France, who would die only two years after their marriage. If the King-consort of Scotland survived and Mary had a son, he would inherit both the French and Scottish throne.

This PoD has the problem of religion as if the King of Scotland was both Catholic and French, the predominantly Protestant clan leaders and nobility would perhaps revolt. While not a permanent solution, this hypothetical King could accept a Protestant Scottish government with him as King, as Mary had, so long as he ruled with moderation.

This would be a difficult time for a personal union for France as well, which is currently undergoing the second deadliest religious war in European history. The butterflies of having a different heir on the throne of France during this time may undermine the kingdom.

If Mary Tudor Queen of England live longer than OTL she will likely force Elizabeth to marry a Catholic prince (likely https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_II,_Archduke_of_Austria) so England and Scotland will stay Catholic and divided

 

[procrastinating2much]

Looks like for this to be lasting, France and Scotland have to seriously wreck Britain. I wonder if they can wreck them so hard that Scotland actually takes territory in Northern England.

By the late medieval times, the border was pretty much set in stone after so many wars. The most Scotland could reasonably take would be Berwick-Upon-Tweed, an important fort in deciding whether Scotland or England dominated the border. However, Scotland could perhaps create a vassal in Northumberland to act as a buffer state to prevent an English invasion. Overall though, once England is surrounded by France from the north and across the Channel, it’s power and ability to dismantle the union is going to be very limited.

 

[Matteo]

The United Kingdom of France and Scotland
Royaume-Uni de France et d'Ecosse

View attachment 403696

The Auld Alliance (https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofScotland/The-Auld-Alliance-France-Scotland/), originally between the Kingdom of France and the Kingdom of Scotland, dates back to 1295, created out of the shared interest between the two in preventing rapid English expansion. This alliance, by some, is considered to be the oldest friendship between two nations in history, with its peak in 1421, where 12,000 Scots fought alongside the French against the Auld Enemy of England in the Battle of Bauge, a decisive victory claiming revenge for Agincourt. The original alliance granted dual-citizenship to the French and the Scots, and a cultural bond developed over wine and French cuisine.

What if this alliance slowly lead to a greater cultural and linguistic exchange, and eventually a personal, and possibly political, union? How would this come to happen, and how would this affect the political dynamic of the world?​

Looks great. Bonus if you add Ireland to this union.

 

[procrastinating2much]

The Reign of Francis II of France



With the survival of Francis II, the strife that existed in France during his rule as a consequence of the regency of the House of Guise, the young and inexperienced king would face internal struggles from Protestant nobles, becoming more authoritarian as a result. Whilst a dialogue between Catherine de’ Medici and her enemies were opened, the strife would mark the beginning of the French Wars of Religion. Although declining in Europe as a result of a peace Treaty with Spain and the Hasburgs, his son born after Francis’ two years after his recovery from an ear infection in 1562, Henry III of France, would also be heir to the throne is Scotland.

Looting of churches in Lyon by Huguenots during the reign of Francis II of France

For the remainder of his reign, Francis would fail to manage the revolts in cities in the South, as his wife convinced him to divert soldiers to Scotland to aid the Catholics in the Scottish Reformation. By this point, Scottish Parliament has proposed the Treaty of Edinburgh, to make Scotland a Protestant kingdom. To counteract this, Francis, and the House of Guise, would begin implanting French soldiers in Scottish towns to suppress the growing religion. During the course of the French War of Religion, Francis’ would become disgusted by the actions of the House of Guise, and would order regency to be restored to his mother, despite his age now permitting him able to rule. Catherine, through intrigue, ordered a peace between the Huguenots and the Catholic League by permitting a middle path of allowing Protestants to congregate, whilst also preparing to resinstate the authority of the monarchy by borrowing money to hire Catholic mercenaries.

Francis would die of natural causes in 1567, and Henri, ages 5, would ascend to the throne, with Mary Queen of Scots regent of France and Scotland.​

 

[Xgentis]

Interesting, I am looking forward to next updates.

 

[Wendell]

This makes things in Ireland bloodier....