The Anglo/American - Nazi War

[Simon Darkshade]

It is always refreshing to see that the thing that gets chaps most shocked about a war devastated world is the absence of familiar programming on the electric television.

That isn't to say I wouldn't miss Doctor Who although it wouldn't really bother me personally to lose the others.

However, this is all dependent on the course of the war and whether there is a recognizable postwar society and Britain; copping a barrage of nerve gas tipped missiles would change things well beyond the realm of televisual entertainment.

With an ongoing war into the late 50s, historical migration patterns to Britain from the Commonwealth will not occur in the same fashion, and this in turn will alter the social landscape of 60s and 70s Britain.

Similarly, a Nazi controlled Europe won't be an agent for the spread of Dutch Elm disease, so the appearence of the English countryside will be different.

 

[GeneralTigerXVII]

The biggest heartache (aside from Monty Python) will be Paris. It has one of the richest troves of history imaginable. Hitler loved the city, so it was safe under him. However, Himmler has no connection. And, well, the Mona Lisa might be the Mona-burnt-out-picture frame.

 

[Hero of Canton]

The biggest heartache (aside from Monty Python) will be Paris. It has one of the richest troves of history imaginable. Hitler loved the city, so it was safe under him. However, Himmler has no connection. And, well, the Mona Lisa might be the Mona-burnt-out-picture frame.

Don't worry, I'm sure the Mona Lisa and all the other really good pieces of pretty are safely tucked away in Herr Goering's art collection.

HoC

 

[MerryPrankster]

Don't worry, I'm sure the Mona Lisa and all the other really good pieces of pretty are safely tucked away in Herr Goering's art collection.

HoC

That's what I figured, although the Louvre itself, the Eiffel Tower, and Notre Dame may not survive TTL.

 

[DuQuense]

There is also going to be
NO Elvis - NO Bubby Hollis - No Rock and Roll as whe know it. I think that the Big Bands/Swing sound will last thru the War.

 

[anon_user]

TTL's silent generation is going to have an interesting time. Everyone in that generation grew up with rationing, with censorship, with the tensions of Warm and Hot War. The women in that generation are entering the workforce - principally vital wartime industries, I imagine, though also the (noncombat) military itself - by the late '40s and early '50s. How willing will they be to leave the workforce?

Demobilization is going to be, uh, interesting. Especially with the fact that Europe is being, for the most part, occupied rather than liberated.
***
I wonder if postwar fashion, once rationing is lifted, will stay on austere lines (reflecting the impacts of a generation of on-and-off war) rather than being like the OTL post-war fashions. Probably the latter, but the former would be neat. I don't think there'll be the same optimism after the war ends that there was in the USA in OTL's 1945 - instead probably more of a war-weariness. Not sure, though.

There may be one hell of a consumer market in the postwar world. Was there ever any let-up of the war economy during the Warm War period? Any easing of restrictions? Probably only possible in America.
***
I wonder what happened to Pavel Sukhoi, Artem Mikoyan, Mikhail Gurevich, and other notable Soviet engineers of the period. I imagine most are either dead or working for Molotov, but it would be neat if any of them left for the West (perhaps through Iran).

 

[Hero of Canton]

There is also going to be
NO Elvis - NO Bubby Hollis - No Rock and Roll as whe know it. I think that the Big Bands/Swing sound will last thru the War.

NO ROCK & ROLL!?!?!?! That's it NUKE 'em till they glow. We've gotta end this war fast if we are to save Elvis!

HoC

 

[tormsen]

I don't really understand the reaction to the changes in pop culture. Sure, various beloved shows, genres and musical styles will be gone or altered. But that doesn't mean there won't be any such things in this timeline. For all we know, an absurdist comedy show or an amazing singer will exist in this timeline that never did in ours.

The reduced racial tensions in the US due to long military intergration and the effects of fighting a horrible racist power for so long might spill over into pop culture ITTL, particularly if there is a larger black middle class than in OTL. Black artists and performers may get a warmer reaction from both white audiences and the broadcasting companies than the relative period in OTL, and that would likely be very good for the creative arts.

 

[NCW]

It is always refreshing to see that the thing that gets chaps most shocked about a war devastated world is the absence of familiar programming on the electric television.

The death of millions is a statistic - the death of my favourite TV Show is a disaster .

Cheers,
Nigel.

 

[M. A. Dickens]

Well if the US is less racist, Michael Jackson might stay black!!! Wouldn't that be something?

Oh and would it be too much to butterfly away Justin Bieber?

Marc A

 

[trekchu]

The death of millions is a statistic - the death of my favourite TV Show is a disaster .

Cheers,
Nigel.

Exactly. A World without the Doctor isn't worth living in.

 

[The Oncoming Storm]

NO ROCK & ROLL!?!?!?! That's it NUKE 'em till they glow. We've gotta end this war fast if we are to save Elvis!

HoC

Sadly it's probably already too late, assuming they're still alive in this TL then Elvis, Holly, Johnny Cash, Jerry Lee Lewis etc are almost certainly in the military. Having seen the intensity of the fighting at Dunkirk and Arras then if they've survived they will have been traumatised if not turned into gibbering, shellshocked wrecks. They will be completely different people and their subsequent lives will follow a different course.

Calbear, any chance of a cameo by Sgt. Elvis A. Presley?!

 

[anon_user]

Calbear, any chance of a cameo by Sgt. Elvis A. Presley?!

Presley, in OTL, served in the 3rd Armored, while Johnny Cash enlisted in the USAF in OTL. Cash, for one, could easily come out of the war perfectly normal.
***
Do you think that Tolkein published his Lord of the Rings during the Warm War?

 

[Gridley]

Do you think that Tolkein published his Lord of the Rings during the Warm War?

In the forward to one of the editions of the trilogy, he answered a question he'd been asked; to the effect of 'were these books based on WWII'? He answered 'no, or I'd have had Sauron fall only to be replaced by something much worse.'

Also, most of the writing was done during WWII OTL, though publication didn't happen until a decade later.

So the odds are high that they're written the same way, and it seems reasonable they'd be published in a similar form. The forces of light defeating the forces of darkness after a hard struggle would probably be a popular topic ITTL.

 

[anon_user]

LOTR

I agree that Lord of the Rings ITTL would be very similar, if not identical... but would paper shortages and rationing have made it impossible to publish?

Basically, I'm obliquely asking how far rationing went during the Warm War.

 

[MikeTurcotte]

One thing I think - after 20 years of war/warm war/hot war, sacrifices, rationing, bombs, the draft, etc, I think people in the UK and USA will CUT LOOSE after this - the 60's will be one giant party of relief...

Or maybe it'll be even worse as the USA, Canada and the UK try to maintain some sanity in a world bombed and depopulated back to the near-stone age.

Mike Turcotte

 

[The Oncoming Storm]

Presley, in OTL, served in the 3rd Armored, while Johnny Cash enlisted in the USAF in OTL. Cash, for one, could easily come out of the war perfectly normal.
***
Do you think that Tolkein published his Lord of the Rings during the Warm War?

Ah but in this timeline he could have been drafted into the Army as there would have been a greater need for frontline troops, equally he could have been one of those who volunteered after the St Patrick's Day raids. Even if he ended up in the USAF Security Section he would have made friends during basic training with men who were subsequently killed or badly wounded.

 

[lloyd007]

One thing I think - after 20 years of war/warm war/hot war, sacrifices, rationing, bombs, the draft, etc, I think people in the UK and USA will CUT LOOSE after this - the 60's will be one giant party of relief...

Or maybe it'll be even worse as the USA, Canada and the UK try to maintain some sanity in a world bombed and depopulated back to the near-stone age.

Mike Turcotte

Well, Eurasia might be a mess but Central and South America from what I've gathered has not gone through the banana republic upheavals and commie revolutions of OTL... Africa is going through a 'softer/gentler' decolonization which means it might not be totally effed as in OTL... SE Asia / Oceania is incubating into a potential powerhouse much sooner than OTL... India is a unified 1000lb economic gorilla and partner in the war...

I'd bet if we looked at TTL's world GDP 2010 as compared to OTL's 2010 GDP we might see it be the same or higher even accounting for the vast loss of population and economy in Eurasia and China because of a very good probability that SE Asia / Oceania has risen to 1st world status along with India. South and Central America are much more 1st and 2nd world and Africa actually has a chance of having some 1st and 2nd world nations as well.

This is because unlike OTL with its diametrically opposed bi polar ideologies, both of which might be viewed as valid and reasonable you have a bi-polar world where one pole is so odious and disgusting it has no appeal to the outside world or real influence. You have the near complete discreditation of Communism. And finally you have a US/UK/ANZAC so focused on the Warm War and the resumption of hostilities that they have by necessity been forced to ignore or leave large parts of their plans to meddle in political world affairs on cruise control outside of "If you let the Nazis in we will squash you like insects..." while still doing economic business with the rest of the world.

IMO this reality of many nations being left to much greater self determination rather than being yanked around by the US and Soviets or left in the lurch by an abrupt decolonization (and then yanked around by the US and Soviets) might very well be the Mothra of all Butterflies post war. There will be far less arms worldwide without the US and Soviet Mil/Ind complexes churning them out and I think the fact that many tin pot dictators, tyrants and El Presidentes will not be able to play off mommy Russia vs daddy US will likewise be huge. Throw in the fact that the US/UK/ANZAC TTL will be much more willing to get its hands dirty as opposed to proxy wars and everyone can see that effing around with the Anglo Americans is suicidal stupidity probably means a lot of the strife of OTL is either smoothed over or glossed over (although I can see the amusing situation of two movements in a nation in upheaval accusing each other of being Nazis to try and bring the Anglo Americans in to crush the other side for them).

 

[mrmandias]

The women in that generation are entering the workforce - principally vital wartime industries, I imagine, though also the (noncombat) military itself - by the late '40s and early '50s. How willing will they be to leave the workforce?

Pretty willing, I suspect. The workforce isn't actually that glamorous, especially on the lower rungs where women are going to be at that time, and people really do want kids. I think TTL might get much sooner to where we are getting now--for women, the workforce is neither necessarily sinful nor necessarily preferable, its just there.

 

[mrmandias]

Postwar, there will probably be a ton of immigration to whichever of these countries is willing to accept immigrants and has a decent economy. Ditto South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, India, the UK's African colonies, and anywhere else modern and not thoroughly trashed.

SE Asia is likely to get scads of Chinese immigrants too, anywhere that will take them.

The US might get some, but immigration laws were quite restrictive in the US at this point until the OTL 60s, and here, with the waves of demobbed vets and with the fact that most immigrants will be from formerly Nazi countries, I can't see a lot of US enthusiasm for changing its laws.

I don't know if the UK will get lots of immigration from the continent or not. I suspect that lots of OTL Marshall Plan aid will go to propping up the UK instead of the Continent, since there's no Soviet threat. So the UK may well get lots of immigration. Unless its been wrecked with nerve gas and anthrax attacsk.

Well, Eurasia might be a mess but Central and South America from what I've gathered has not gone through the banana republic upheavals and commie revolutions of OTL