The Anglo/American - Nazi War

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CalBear

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That is the most intriguing pat of this time line and also the hardest to write.

While the technologies and battles of this time line are fascinating, the world they'll create is more fascinating by far.

Which is why I will be doing a single overview post at the end.

I literally shiver at the prospect of having to do a detailed T/L of the post war period to TTL 2010.:eek::eek::eek::eek:

It will be an interesting overview, with butterflies coming to roost, but it will NOT go on for 50K words.
 
Given the long term 'warm' war period, it would seem the drivers for faster convoys do apply (when you are looking at a longer period, the maths of faster ships is obviously better). So I would expect a new generation of Liberty ships and their UK equivalents to be making around 18 knots, probably with a real convoy speed of around 15.

Actually, you're almost perfectly describing the Victory Ships of OTL. Over 400 cargo types (VC2-S-AP2, VC2-S-AP3 being the most common Maritime Commission codes) were built during the war, plus another 117 Haskell-class APA's. Over a hundred more cargo types were canceled due to the war ending.

Not a patch on the 2,700+ Liberty ships, but the Victory ships didn't start coming off the ways until 1944. Give a longer war and the Victory fleet might even exceed the Liberty fleet - kinda scary thought, that.
 
Actually, you're almost perfectly describing the Victory Ships of OTL. Over 400 cargo types (VC2-S-AP2, VC2-S-AP3 being the most common Maritime Commission codes) were built during the war, plus another 117 Haskell-class APA's. Over a hundred more cargo types were canceled due to the war ending.

Not a patch on the 2,700+ Liberty ships, but the Victory ships didn't start coming off the ways until 1944. Give a longer war and the Victory fleet might even exceed the Liberty fleet - kinda scary thought, that.

The Victory ship was close to the concept, but they did 15-17kt (ie 15 in practice :), while the RN suggestion was 17kt min (probably needing 17-19 designed).
Another driver for faster ships (again killing off the early WW2 escort carriers) is that now the British KNOW they wont be trading around Europe in the near future, so ships will be designed for the longer sea routes (pre WW2 a lot of the UK trade was around Europe, one of the reasons France falling caused a big shipping problem). I could also see containerisation hapenning earlier - its a great way of increasing the efficiency of your shipping, but requires investment at the ports. Given the semi-war conditions the drives would seem to be strengthened for this change
 
The Victory ship was close to the concept, but they did 15-17kt (ie 15 in practice :), while the RN suggestion was 17kt min (probably needing 17-19 designed).

The -AP2's were 15kts, yes, but the -AP3's could reliably do 17kts; more powerful machinery (6,000shp vs. 8,500shp from my notes). A quick cube-root check gives 16.4kts assuming the 6,000shp type could do 15kts, so 17kts is realistic.
 
The -AP2's were 15kts, yes, but the -AP3's could reliably do 17kts; more powerful machinery (6,000shp vs. 8,500shp from my notes). A quick cube-root check gives 16.4kts assuming the 6,000shp type could do 15kts, so 17kts is realistic.

It would be interesting to see the reasons for the speed increase. Unfortunately the source material for the RN's view is their 'internal' quartely book, it doesn't have any input as to what the USN were thinking. I would guess at least part of their view would be that speed is important in the Pacific due to the huge distances, they might have had no considerations for Atlantic convoys which by the point those ships were built were fairly safe from U-boat attack
 
As to the UK manpower issue...I feel 18 divisions is greatly underestimating the available manpower. While there probably wont be as many available as in WW2 (around 70), there certainly will be more than 18.

There is also a LOT of manpower available in the Empire (quite a lot of troops were held locally in WW2, for example in Africa. With no credible threat outside Europe, some of these will be available). Indeed, its almost certain that for political reasons the invading army will comprise troops from as many countries as possible.
Remember also that the need to keep large standing armed forces during the intervening years will drive efficiency in industry even more strongly than in OTL, and once the German navy is admiring the bottom of the Atlantic the manpower in the RN and USN can be reduced somewhat.

18 was the estimate for the field army size deployed to NW Europe.

In the historic Second World War, Britain deployed around 5 million men in total at its high point in 1945.

2,900,000-3,000,000 in the Army
865,000 in the RN
1,100,000 in the RAF

At the close of the war, this translated to 3 Armoured Divisions (plus 79th broken up around the place), 2 Airborne Divisions 18 Infantry Divisions and 4 reserve/holding divisions in the UK that weren't going anywhere. There was also quite a lot of manpower tied up in Anti Aircraft Command.

We'll even back track and change that to 4 Armoured Divisions, given that the 1st was disbanded in early 1945. That still gives only 24 deployable divisions, plus a lot of independent artillery regiments, AGRAs, armoured brigades and copious support units.

3 African divisions were in service, along with the Caribbean Regiment.

Extra manpower will be available from the British units no longer serving with the British Indian Army, which will balance out losses (such as the airborne division over the Channel Islands) and the presumed loss of all POWs captured by the Japanese (the starvation approach taken will have meant the death of virtually all Allied POWs, plus millions of Chinese and Koreans).

Strip the garrisons around the Empire, as was done at the beginning of WW1, and perhaps 2 divisions would be available.

Efficiency is not something that will occur overnight, and doesn't affect all of the big manpower industries - coal mining being an important example. Efficiency in and of itself will not give more than 1-2 divisions for the Army, when requirements are spread out across the military.

The strength of the RN may fall, but a lot is needed for supporting the invasions, including heavy manpower ships such as battleships, cruisers and carriers, not to mention a lot of landing craft, logistical support ships and transports. Let us work with that though, and reform the Royal Marine Division and a Royal Naval Division (although the latter may not be called that in this situation).

Forces will still be required in Malta (2-3 brigades), Gibraltar, Cyprus (2-3 brigades), Egypt (1-2 divisions), Palestine (1-2 divisions) Iraq (1-2 divisions) and Persia (1-2 divisions), not to mention Malaya and Hong Kong (1 division between them). These will have to be fielded without recourse to the British Indian Army, as India is basically independent in this scenario and we perhaps cannot count on them garrisoning British Imperial possessions out of the goodness of their hearts.

Some of those locations will need a strong garrison as they hold very important airbases for the strategic bombing campaign, such as the Middle East.


Even with a larger population of 51 million as compared to 48, Britain is not going to have a huge amount more than 5.5 million men under arms, as that is a very large slice of the available industrial workforce, which is around 19-21 million.

That would potentially give us

Airborne: 2 divisions
Home Defence/Training/Holding: 4 divisions
Strategic Reserve: 2 divisions
Minimum Imperial Defence: 6 divisions
British Contribution to Allied Expeditionary Force:
1 Army
4 Corps
14-18 infantry divisions
4-6 armoured divisions
+ independent armoured brigades, infantry brigades, AGRA, artillery regiments, engineers, logistical support, reconnaissance regiments, lines of communication troops and light/medium AA regiments

Add to the pot the African Corps - call it the British African Army if you want to.

So, around 32-40 divisions all up, but only 18-24 that can realistically be deployed to Europe.

That force will need to be shepherded carefully, as, like 21st Army Group, it is Britain's last field army and cannot be replaced. It will probably see divisions disbanded to cater for losses based on the course of the campaign thus far.

This is not taking into account the huge cost of maintaining a massive force of V-Bombers, and then using them as jet powered Lancasters in a conventional strategic bombing campaign, taking appalling losses in blood and treasure.

The cultural effects of what type of campaign is fought will be significant.

If the British Army manages to punch above its weight and win several battles against the Nazis, then the future image of the war in popular culture will be tinged with evocations of great heroism and triumph, although at great cost. If they get mauled, then it will be a bit more like the First World War, where the losses are an area of focus.
Both of these will be decidedly secondary characteristics to the characterization of the war as a crusade and a just war against an unspeakable evil; but the butchers bill will affect the lighting, so to speak.

The culture that grows out of such a war, and out of half a decade more of hard austerity, will be an interesting one. I can see absurdism and escapism coming to the fore to some extent, but there may be a need for a strong army of occupation. This would delay the sense of collapse that lead to a lot of the anti-establishment comics and Angry Young Men playwrights that emerged from the mid-late 50s; historically, it came from the loss of Empire, and therefore the loss of a lot of career paths into the Colonial Office for many educated young men.

The damage done by German rocket attacks and air raids will result, sadly for some, in the wider spread of brutalist architecture in the postwar rebuilding phase.

National Service is unlikely to end any time soon, so the potential building material for a lot of the musical groups of the late 50s and early 60s will not be at a loose end or at art school, but will be out across the world with a rifle and short hair cut, down the coal mines or on occupation duty in some areas of Europe.

This is pure speculation, as it depends on
1.) How the war goes
2.) Any potential Himmlerian Gotterdamerung/use of chemical and biological weapons in the death throes of the Nazi regime
3.) Postwar US policy
4.) How, when and where atomic weapons have been used
5.) Whether Britain collapses economically
6.) The postwar economic order

It is a panoply of bad situations and unenviable choices, all of which will cost huge amounts in blood and treasure. This would lead to increased pressure for a much cheaper, quicker and more decisive means of destroying Nazi Germany, in the concentrated use of atomic weapons, or anthrax or anything that can have a massive and immediate effect.

If they (atomic bombs) are regarded as simply another weapon (or, to use an apt phrase one once heard, 'a very big bomb with some interesting side effects' ) then there is a case for using them in this situation. If they are not used, the question will be asked as to why so much money was spent building them in the first place - a question that will always come up in World War 3 scenarios or world wars that take place in the atomic age.

Even though we have the oft-cited case of Japanese starvation and devastation, this is much, much closer to home from a British perspective. British cities are getting smashed and another generation is being bled dry in France. The Empire has been lost, and Britain is on the precipice of economic collapse, and there is precious little to be shown for it.

There will be no question that fighting and destroying Nazism is the right thing to do. There will be a lot of questions, at the appropriate levels, as to why it is being done without using the most powerful weapons available.
 
Another thing to remember about Japan is that there is considerable controversy ITTL about the lack of use of nukes on Japan. People ITTL may see nukes as the more merciful solution and a way to avoid the horrors of Japan being repeated in Europe. Rather than a long, grinding campaign across Europe, you just need to drop a few bombs.
 
18 was the estimate for the field army size deployed to NW Europe.

.

Brilliant analysis, Simon, just brilliant. IIRC, in OTL the Brits were breaking a division/onth starting in late 1943 to keep their other formations at strength.

The only thing I'll add is I don't see the US allowing Britain to financially collapse barring a complete return to isolationism. If for no other reason that the prestige of the 'Allied' nations.

My estimate for the US forces deployed in Europe range in 80-100 division range (more than OTL, but not much more), along with 15-20 divisions of 'others' (Canadians, South Americans, Free French, Free Poles, Free whatevers,) all equiped by the US (with the exception of the Canadians, who, after 20 years of this probably have a TO&E closer to the US than the UK).

Mike Turcotte
 
18 was the estimate for the field army size deployed to NW Europe.

In the historic Second World War, Britain deployed around 5 million men in total at its high point in 1945.

2,900,000-3,000,000 in the Army
865,000 in the RN
1,100,000 in the RAF

At the close of the war, this translated to 3 Armoured Divisions (plus 79th broken up around the place), 2 Airborne Divisions 18 Infantry Divisions and 4 reserve/holding divisions in the UK that weren't going anywhere. There was also quite a lot of manpower tied up in Anti Aircraft Command.

We'll even back track and change that to 4 Armoured Divisions, given that the 1st was disbanded in early 1945. That still gives only 24 deployable divisions, plus a lot of independent artillery regiments, AGRAs, armoured brigades and copious support units.

3 African divisions were in service, along with the Caribbean Regiment.

Extra manpower will be available from the British units no longer serving with the British Indian Army, which will balance out losses (such as the airborne division over the Channel Islands) and the presumed loss of all POWs captured by the Japanese (the starvation approach taken will have meant the death of virtually all Allied POWs, plus millions of Chinese and Koreans).

Strip the garrisons around the Empire, as was done at the beginning of WW1, and perhaps 2 divisions would be available.

Efficiency is not something that will occur overnight, and doesn't affect all of the big manpower industries - coal mining being an important example. Efficiency in and of itself will not give more than 1-2 divisions for the Army, when requirements are spread out across the military.

The strength of the RN may fall, but a lot is needed for supporting the invasions, including heavy manpower ships such as battleships, cruisers and carriers, not to mention a lot of landing craft, logistical support ships and transports. Let us work with that though, and reform the Royal Marine Division and a Royal Naval Division (although the latter may not be called that in this situation).

Forces will still be required in Malta (2-3 brigades), Gibraltar, Cyprus (2-3 brigades), Egypt (1-2 divisions), Palestine (1-2 divisions) Iraq (1-2 divisions) and Persia (1-2 divisions), not to mention Malaya and Hong Kong (1 division between them). These will have to be fielded without recourse to the British Indian Army, as India is basically independent in this scenario and we perhaps cannot count on them garrisoning British Imperial possessions out of the goodness of their hearts.

Some of those locations will need a strong garrison as they hold very important airbases for the strategic bombing campaign, such as the Middle East.


Even with a larger population of 51 million as compared to 48, Britain is not going to have a huge amount more than 5.5 million men under arms, as that is a very large slice of the available industrial workforce, which is around 19-21 million.

That would potentially give us

Airborne: 2 divisions
Home Defence/Training/Holding: 4 divisions
Strategic Reserve: 2 divisions
Minimum Imperial Defence: 6 divisions
British Contribution to Allied Expeditionary Force:
1 Army
4 Corps
14-18 infantry divisions
4-6 armoured divisions
+ independent armoured brigades, infantry brigades, AGRA, artillery regiments, engineers, logistical support, reconnaissance regiments, lines of communication troops and light/medium AA regiments

Add to the pot the African Corps - call it the British African Army if you want to.

So, around 32-40 divisions all up, but only 18-24 that can realistically be deployed to Europe.

That force will need to be shepherded carefully, as, like 21st Army Group, it is Britain's last field army and cannot be replaced. It will probably see divisions disbanded to cater for losses based on the course of the campaign thus far.

Your figures are missing quite a few men....

An Army of around 3,000,000 men translates into 60-70 divisions (after REMF's are taken into account). Which is roughly what the British fielded in 1944.
In addition to the NE Europe, there were the forces in Italy, SE Asia, large garrison forces in Egypt, India, and all over the place. While I agree some garrisons will still be needed, they can be both considerably reduced and use more local troops.
India, for example, would no longer absorb any British troops.

I would guess that on a WW2 basis Britain could quite easily field 50 divisions. Remember that fighting in NE Europe close to your supply base means a smaller RE, so more troops can be teeth.
However I suspect that the Allies will have a much higher proportion of armoured forces than in WW2, so the actual number of divisions would be less.

I'm not quite sure why a V-bomber force, smaller due to the expense of each plane, absorbs more men than the RAF did in WW2? Yes, more highly trained men are needed. But not that many more men. The maintenance crews of a carrier, for example, are not much larger than they were in WW2 per plane. And with fewer planes, it evens out.
Again, the RAF will be mainly engaged in Europe. No masses of planes in Italy, the Far East, and all over the globe.
 
Your figures are missing quite a few men....

An Army of around 3,000,000 men translates into 60-70 divisions (after REMF's are taken into account). Which is roughly what the British fielded in 1944.
In addition to the NE Europe, there were the forces in Italy, SE Asia, large garrison forces in Egypt, India, and all over the place. While I agree some garrisons will still be needed, they can be both considerably reduced and use more local troops.
India, for example, would no longer absorb any British troops.

I would guess that on a WW2 basis Britain could quite easily field 50 divisions. Remember that fighting in NE Europe close to your supply base means a smaller RE, so more troops can be teeth.
However I suspect that the Allies will have a much higher proportion of armoured forces than in WW2, so the actual number of divisions would be less.

I'm not quite sure why a V-bomber force, smaller due to the expense of each plane, absorbs more men than the RAF did in WW2? Yes, more highly trained men are needed. But not that many more men. The maintenance crews of a carrier, for example, are not much larger than they were in WW2 per plane. And with fewer planes, it evens out.
Again, the RAF will be mainly engaged in Europe. No masses of planes in Italy, the Far East, and all over the globe.

The British Army fielded 5 Armoured Divisions (plus 79th), 17 Infantry Divisions, 9 Reserve/Training/Home Defence Divisions and 2 Airborne Divisions in 1944, for a total of 33 divisions, which is somewhat less than 60 or 70; the nine divisions at home were not all suited for deployment and could be raided for men, but not deployed as entities in and of themselves.

At no stage in the historical Second World War was 60-70 divisions reached; there were plans to go for a 55 division force in 1939/1940, but these were decreased over time with necessity.

I have accounted for troops present in Italy, the Far East and India in my calculations, as well as the lack of a need to deploy several divisions to India.

Local garrisons can take care of the likes of West and East Africa. The garrison forces outlined (for Egypt, the Middle East, the Med and the Far East) are minimum forces, and in many cases, there aren't the local forces to use, for reasons of reliability, importance of assets or simple absence of manpower. Even if all of these divisions could be withdrawn to the UK and subsequently fielded as complete divisions in Europe, it does not add more than a corps or two or manpower, or more likely, replacements.

I don't think Britain could field 50 divisions in its total force, let alone in a field army. Supporting half that number in the field will be hard enough.

The V-Bomber force has experienced over 100% losses in this timeline. That is not on the level of Bomber Command in @, but still represents a large slice of available manpower of the top quality going into bombers that are being wasted. These are the men that would be effective infantry or armoured officers and allow for larger forces, just as the size and losses of Bomber Command in 1943-45 affected what the British Army could do.

Additionally, there is the cost - roughly 250-300 million pounds to buy 330 odd bombers, more money for equipment, electronics and ordnance, more money for training the crew, more money for facilities and factories, and then the need to spend more to replace them, as they have been destroyed.

To put things in perspective (and this does depend on whether the pound was devalued in the late 40s) that first figure alone is something in the range of a third of the cost of the Manhattan Project*.

* = This is based firstly on a cost of 2 billion USD for the Manhattan Project and the exchange rate of 1 pound = 2.8 dollars that was adopted after the historical postwar British devaluation and an estimated cost of 750,000 pounds/bomber including development costs.

That is a lot of money that could go towards increasing the size of a field army.


The RAF is not spread out, but will not be dramatically smaller, as it will have several roles:
1.) Air Defence of Great Britain
2.) Strategic Bombing
3.) Air Defence of the Middle East
4.) Coastal Command
5.) A very large committment to Europe in the form of one or more tactical air forces that will encounter high rates of attrition.

I wager it would be more difficult, take longer and cost more to replace losses in 1958 than it would with the aircraft of 1939-45.
 
I'd hazard a guess that Britain has a considerably greater number of people living in it at this time than OTL and like the US has a substantially greater sense of national identity and 'pride' although unlike many things that have been butterflied away like the Beatles I can still see Monty Python coming together... :D

I'm afraid that I have to disagree with your last point. A major influence on Monty Python was the 1950's radio series, the Goon Show. I can't see such an anarchistic programme being made in the 1950s ITTL. In any case, the main cast and many other people involved in the show served in the armed forces in WWII, so their lives are going to be different ITTL due to having different wartime experiences. To pick an obvious example, Spike Milligan is not going to suffer shell-shock after experiencing a near-miss in an artilary barrage in Italy. In OTL, this seems to have been a major cause of the manic-depression that influenced his writing.

Cheers,
Nigel.
 
I'm afraid that I have to disagree with your last point. A major influence on Monty Python was the 1950's radio series, the Goon Show. I can't see such an anarchistic programme being made in the 1950s ITTL. In any case, the main cast and many other people involved in the show served in the armed forces in WWII, so their lives are going to be different ITTL due to having different wartime experiences. To pick an obvious example, Spike Milligan is not going to suffer shell-shock after experiencing a near-miss in an artilary barrage in Italy. In OTL, this seems to have been a major cause of the manic-depression that influenced his writing.

Cheers,
Nigel.

no......Monty Python :eek:? I mean, France being a smoking hole in the ground I can take, but........no Monty Python? Geez, the Nazis have influenced this world in ways unimaginable.
 
While I somewhat agree with this I somewhat disagree with this about the US especially... Soldiers are still going to be coming back from the Pacific Front and the US is going to gear down to an extent during the Warm War. So while the Baby Boom might not begin in earnest until after the war is definitely concluded (or at all) I think pop growth in general might be higher than it was overall OTL (and stay that way unlike OTL).
I can see the War time increase from 1.7 pre war to 2.4 during the war, continuing during the Warm Peace, and even after the war. This is basically the 1900~1930 rate after all.
I just do not see the 3.+ rates that whe had 1945 ~1965, ITTL's post war.

I have been thinking [always a good way to get in Trouble] about the US - Australia and the post war Pacific.
OTL in late 1944 into 1945 Austrulia was reducing it's military to allow the men to feed back into [needed] the civilian sector.
IIRC the Plan was to reduce the military to Half it's 1943~44 peak. I can see Australia maintaining this level ITTL.

Now ITTL the US controls Vladivostok and the Amur area. of Russia.
Given the need for forces in Europe I see Anzus sending 1/2 it's troops to help Britain. Part of the rest may be sent to help the US in Russia.
As such whe may have a small stream of Russians escaping to Australia.
?Would this be enuff to have Australia keep it's "Whites Only" Policy.?
 
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I can't see any major motivation for Australia ending the White Australia Policy at this time in this scenario; it could well fade out by the late 60s.

I do concur that the Goons, Monty Python, Beyond the Fringe and related groups will not exist in this TL, as the social changes and continued austerity will last well into the mid 1960s. I don't see this personally as a disaster, tragedy or negative event, not with the real disasters and tragedies that have occured in this situation, and indeed the society that emerges out of this reconstruction phase (if it ever makes it) would be an interesting one indeed in terms of cultural difference.

Television will probably be delayed in its return to Britain until the 1960s, as there wouldn't be a pressing need for restarting it in the 1947-1954 timeframe, and quite a lot against it. This means that the entire history of British television programming will be hit for six and when it develops, will not feature a lot of the programmes we know - no Doctor Who, Coronation Street, The Avengers, Steptoe and Son, Z-Cars or Quatermass, to name a few.

When (and if) television does return, it will remain Reithian for a long time, and the BBC won't necessarily be joined by ITV until the 1970s.

We won't see a Mary Whitehouse until a lot later, if at all.

International sport will also be very different - no Football World Cups, no Olympics and probably no Empire Games. Some form of Test cricket would carry on in the interwar period, although the 1948 Ashes Tour would probably be different due to butterflies or additional deaths; Keith Miller could well be killed in an extended war.
 
Wait.

Wait one second.

No Doctor Who, no Mrs Peel in those wonderful skin-tight outfits...no Monty Python?!?!?:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:




Calbear, I'm sorry but I'm activating my time machine and erasing your TL and establishing one I find more congenial. I'm going to prevent the collapse of the USSR and enable Stalin to partition Europe with FDR and Churchill no later than the end of 1945.
 
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