The 30 mm HE shell. The ideal weapon for use by WW2 Allied fighter planes?

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias from the Wikipedia article.

Here is the well known image used to illustrate survivor bias as describe by Abraham Wald. Planes hit in the marked spots would often still be able to return home. There is no data recorded for the unmarked spots because the planes hit in those areas didn't return so hits in those places were not recorded.

But it's not survivor bias I'm discussing here but how ineffective WW2 era fighter armament was. This graphic illustrates how aircraft could absorb hits, frequently multiple hits, in various locations and still be able to return home. It's was difficult to achieve precise accurate firing in the split second afforded in WW2 aerial combat. For the Allies, the British using a mix of .303 MMG and 20 mm cannon and the Americans using .50 caliber HMGs showed the difficulties in achieving reliable kills in a single pass. It was very difficult for most pilots to achieve accurate firing on the enemy airplane's kill spot in a split-second. This meant enemy aircraft often surviving with a few holes drilled in non essential places. Hence we read about after action reports that would be listing confirmed, probable and damaged with many more E/A in the latter two categories.

This Youtube video I've linked to here shows the RAF test firing the German MK 108 cannon on aircraft targets. The level of damage produced by single hits is significant.

What's most compelling about this video is it describes catastrophic damaged produced by single hits. Even in areas on the plane that would have been able to absorb hits from smaller caliber, less explosive munitions. This is why I'm suggesting that a weapon of this type would have been the best possible weapon for Allied fighter planes using the existing 1940s technology. Because one hit would very likely destroy an enemy fighter plane. Two hits would be a dead certainty.

During a typical WW2 aerial combat over Germany a Mustang pilot squeezes off a quick burst at a FW 190. The U.S. pilot doesn't lead the Focke-Wulf adequately during the split-second he has to aim and shoot. Consequently a couple of .50 API rounds drill through the 190's vertical stabilizer doing no serious damage. If the Mustang was equipped with two wing mounted 30 mm cannons firing shells that are carrying 85 grams/3 ounces of RDX then just one hit would blow off the 190s' vertical stabilizer taking the rudder with it. An exaggeration? Please refer to the RAF's video posted here showing the testing of these shells.

Those 30 mm shells had an explosive power greater then a WW2 U.S hand grenade. Where can a hand grenade be detonated on a fighter plane that wouldn't destroy it? A hit on the rear fuselage would blow off the tail. On the inner wing it would open a hole in the fuel tank the size of a dinner plate and ignite the fuel. The cockpit area would kill the pilot. I believe the use of munitions with that level of explosive power was approaching as close to one shoot, one hit, one kill for Allied fighters as was possible without the post war development of guided air to air missiles.

Also, a clarification. I'm not advocating the MK 108 cannon the Germans developed. That was specifically designed to attack the large, unmaneuvering bomber formations of the Allied, mainly American, daytime bomber offensive. Hence the low muzzle velocity of the MK 108. Not very useful for attacking fighters.
It's the high explosive 30 mm shell that is the hidden gem here.

Could the Allies have developed a similar weapon? A 30 mm round with a similar explosive power as the German 30mm/99mm "mineshell"? But designed with a larger case to increase the muzzle velocity? What would be ideal is a gun that can fire about 10 rounds a second with a muzzle velocity nearing 900ms/3000fts. Firing a 30mm round carrying 85grams/3 ounces of RDX. And made small enough to fit in the wings of Spitfires and Mustangs. Thunderbolts and in the nose of Lightnings. Even if the firing time is reduced to 10 seconds or so due to the size of the rounds in the available magazine space the effectiveness of each fighter well makes up for that.

If somebody had thought of it could it have been feasibly done with mid-war Allied technology?
 
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Driftless

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The US moused around with the 23mm Madsen pre-war, considering that weapon for several aircraft. However, nothing came of it. AIUI, the objective was more bang than the normal 20, but the gun had mixed functional performance (a familiar tune in US auto-cannon use). What if they push on through the mechanical issues and get an operational weapon that's used on several types of planes: fighter, light bomber, tail gun on a B-17, etc? You get a working weapon first, then upgrade the potency over time?
 
It's always a trade off.

Rate of fire vs potency of ammunity vs weight in the plane.

The German mk103 30 mm cannon came into service in 1942. It fired around 360 rpm. The gun weighed 140 kg.

The British mk2 hispano 20 mm cannons had a rate of fire around 600 rpm. The gun weighed 60 kg.

I really don't think a 600 rpm 30 mm cannon is really a viable option. If it was it would probably weigh a lot more than the German cannon so you might have 1 cannon instead of 4 20 mm cannon.

The below comparison is between the 20 mm cannons in use and a 30mm cannon similar to German specs.

While the increased lethality of the 30 mm sounds great you are probably halving the gun numbers and each gun has around half the rate of fire.

So if you fire a quarter of the rounds with the 30 mm as the 20 mm will you really get more kills?

In my opinion you will probably get more kills against heavy multi engine bombers (which are generally harder to bring down) but less against fighters.

Mid war the Allies don't really need something to take down big multi engine bombers like the Germans had. It's not the priority. The priority is to take down fighters.
 
It's always a trade off.

Rate of fire vs potency of ammunity vs weight in the plane.

The German mk103 30 mm cannon came into service in 1942. It fired around 360 rpm. The gun weighed 140 kg.

The British mk2 hispano 20 mm cannons had a rate of fire around 600 rpm. The gun weighed 60 kg.

I really don't think a 600 rpm 30 mm cannon is really a viable option. If it was it would probably weigh a lot more than the German cannon so you might have 1 cannon instead of 4 20 mm cannon.

The below comparison is between the 20 mm cannons in use and a 30mm cannon similar to German specs.

While the increased lethality of the 30 mm sounds great you are probably halving the gun numbers and each gun has around half the rate of fire.

So if you fire a quarter of the rounds with the 30 mm as the 20 mm will you really get more kills?

In my opinion you will probably get more kills against heavy multi engine bombers (which are generally harder to bring down) but less against fighters.

Mid war the Allies don't really need something to take down big multi engine bombers like the Germans had. It's not the priority. The priority is to take down fighters.
The third option is the MK 108, which has a high calibre (30mm) and rate-of-fire (650[850 for the A model] rounds/minute), but with a muzzle velocity of only 540 m/s. it also had a fairly manageable weight, of just 58 kg.

the real trade-off is: rate-of-fire, calibre, muzzle velocity. Pick two.
 
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Could the Allies have developed a similar weapon? A 30 mm round with a similar explosive power as the German 30mm/99mm "mineshell"? But designed with a larger case to increase the muzzle velocity? What would be ideal is a gun that can fire about 10 rounds a second with a muzzle velocity nearing 900ms/3000fts. Firing a 30mm round carrying 85grams/3 ounces of RDX. And made small enough to fit in the wings of Spitfires and Mustangs. Thunderbolts and in the nose of Lightnings. Even if the firing time is reduced to 10 seconds or so due to the size of the rounds in the available magazine space the effectiveness of each fighter well makes up for that.

If somebody had thought of it could it have been feasibly done with mid-war Allied technology?
Doubtful. The Germans couldn't manage it, and it took postwar technologies to get that rate of fire with the muzzle velocity.

The other problem is that very few fighters would be able to carry enough of them to be worth it. The MK 103, the closest the Germans got, was a 300-lb gun, which is about twice that of the HS 404 20mm and almost four times that of the M2 Browning, with the result that even the heaviest wing armaments on Allied fighters would have amounted to only two guns. Obviously unacceptable. Even the P-38 wouldn't have been able to carry an acceptable number of guns without excessive extra weight.

Frankly, such a gun would have to be reserved for heavy fighters like the P-61 or Tigercat, or twin-engine fighter-bombers like the Beaufighter and Mosquito, which all already have enough weight reserved to fit three, maybe four such cannons.
 
The big trade-off is space and ammunition capacity
If you're going after heavy bombers a 30 mm is good but if you were going after fighters, it's limitations become apparent especially if you are outnumbered which was the problem the Germans were facing
 
The third option is the MK 108, which has a high calibre (30mm) and rate-of-fire (650[850 for the A model] rounds/minute), but with a muzzle velocity of only 540 m/s. it also had a fairly manageable weight, of just 58 kg.

the real trade-off is: rate-of-fire, calibre, muzzle velocity. Pick two.
The Mk-108 saved weight by using a shorter barrel that cost some muzzle velocity, range and accuracy
That was a real problem when going up against fighters.
They also saved late by using a lightweight ammunition linkage which tended to break in high G maneuvers, something very common when going up against enemy fighters
 
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The third option is the MK 108, which has a high calibre (30mm) and rate-of-fire (650[850 for the A model] rounds/minute), but with a muzzle velocity of only 540 m/s. it also had a fairly manageable weight, of just 58 kg.

the real trade-off is: rate-of-fire, calibre, muzzle velocity. Pick two.

4th option is to use Japanese 30mm guns, that were firing an useful shell at decent MV and RoF. 5th option - the VYa-23 gun, that fired a 50% heavier shel than Hispano, on even greater MV (~950 m/s).

As for the trade-offs, the weight of the gun is 4th criteria, and size is the 5th (or priority #0, depending from what direction is counted). If an aircraft can't carry a big gun (we will not have an easy task installing the MK 103 within the wing of a P-51 or Spitfire), the potential power of a gun is of no use.


As noted by above posters, the Allies didn't faced the hordes of 4-engined sturdy bombers that were defended by batteries of dangerous HMGs. That makes the choice of guns far easier for them. For the fighters mentioned - Fw 190 and Merlin Mustang - it was far more important to have a better engine in the nose than to have the best possible weapon aboard. The P-51Bs armed with 8 .303s (or .30s, since it was US fighter after all) of BoB vintage would've still made a mess from Fw 190s.

With that said - I'd have WAllies making a deal with Oerlikon by mid-1930s for belt-fed versions of their FF or FL cannons. The FF (or FFF, depending on exact year) was a featherweight, small, and it was lighter than HMGs of the era. By 1939-40, a Spitfire, Hurricane or P-40 can have 4 of them without breaking a sweat. I'd introduce a 100+- g shell for it, so the MV can be greater than 700 m/s for better hit probability, and later introduce the faster firing version.
The FL was a bit bigger and heavier, firing at a greater MV (bigger cartridge than FF). Have two of those installed by 1939 in these fighters, and four by 1942 (when engine power is up). Will more than suffice for anything Allied needed for air-to-air. Japanese were the only users of the FL series.
 
The Mk-108 saved weight by using a shoulder barrel that cause some muzzle velocity range and accuracy
That was a real problem when going up against fighters.
They also saved late by using a lightweight ammunition linkage which tended to break in high G maneuvers, something very common when going up against enemy fighters

MK 108 saved weight by firing ammo with light propellant weight - 30g vs. 110g for the MK 101 or 103 - while still using the heavy shell. Just like there is an amazing difference between different 7.62mm ammo types, from pistol, intermediate, 'full-power' or Magnum cartridges. Or the MG FF using far less of propelant to fire a 130g shell than the Oerlikon S or Hispano firing the same shell weight.

MK 108 ammo
MK 103 ammo
article by Tony Williams

Granted, Germans over-did it with MK 108, luckily they didn't made an 'intermediate' 30mm cartridge (say, something that uses 50-60 g of propellant) and a cannon around it.
 
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CalBear

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The biggest problem is weight, not just of the weapon itself, but of the round.

A reasonable time period example is the Soviet NR-30 since it at least partly offsets the round/minute. The Weapon itself weighed 146 pounds compared to the AN/M3 .50 cal 60-66 pounds (depending sub-variant & mounting). So one is looking at best at 1:2 ratio for weapon, likely 1:3. You then need to look at the weight of the round. The NTR-30 round comes in at 29.5 ounces/836 grams while the M2 Ball for the .50 cal is 117 grams. As a result an aircraft that can put out 120 round in a one second burst (six guns with each gun firing at a rate of 1,200 round/min i.e. 20 round/sec) is now reduced to 26 rounds (2 guns at 800 round/min i.e. 13 round/sec). That is a utter disaster

A shocking few number of rounds actually hit a maneuvering fighter size target from a one or two second burst (which is why you had early examples of the the Spitfire and Hurricane with eight .303 firing at 1,150 RPM in hope of buzzsaw effect). This is much less of problem with attacking bombers, not so much because bombers are much larger, but because the bomber can't dodge all over the sky while in formation or while running to a target. It has to fly a nice steady dead straight path. In that case a smaller number of vastly more lethal rounds is a reasonable solution (which is why pre-war U.S. "interceptors" like the P-38 and P-39 were designed to carry 37mm cannon as their featured armament). Against fighter when is needed is the fastest rate of fire that can be gotten with a round that has sufficient energy to inflict crippling damage. That was the M2 Browning .50 cal with excellent penetration, reasonable weight per round and per gun carried.

A 1,200 RPM 20mm would have been a better weapon, even with the range loss, but the U.S. could not, for love nor money, manage to get something of that capability until well after the end of the war.

If you want to REALLY speculate, have some clever lad come up with .30 cal minigun design in 1942 (a M134 , even the "full weight" one is only 87 pounds, the lightweight is just 41) mount one or two of them, probably in either pods or some sort of bulged wing design. The concept of the weapon was 80 years old at the start of WW II, the Germans had even experimented with an electric motor driven 7.92mmx57mm gun during WW I. a .50 will will come in heavier (a modern 3 barrel variant comes in at 100 pounds so it would be a 2:3 swap, for a gain of 300 RPM).
 
Every gram of weight is important these days to the fighter aircraft, it was no less important during ww2. Most people have an opinion as to best aircraft gun of the war and the opposition expected can change what you do.
The RAF issued requirements for an 8 gun fighter back in 1934 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Air_Ministry_Specifications)
At the time the standard RAF fighter had 2 0.303 machine guns and could be considered typical of the other air forces. Occasionally you see a French aircraft with a 20 mm firing through the propeller hub but the standard is 2 rifle calibre machineguns. The Americans had aircraft with one rifle calibre and one 0.50 Browning fairly often. So the 8 0.303 was fairly good and was definitely looking ahead at what was coming. The problem became the fact that an all metal fuselage and wing did not catch fire with incendiaries and resisted small calibre bullets better than wooden frames for example. The RAF was lucky in that the 20 mm was prepared in the main by the French and needed minimal work in comparison to the start from the beginning that would have otherwise been the case. The Hawker Hurricane with 4 20mm was in my opinion no better than the Mustang with 6 0.50 for shooting down a fighter but much better at killing bombers. This again is weight versus utility. The most ridiculous aircraft had to be the idea of adding a 50 mm cannon to a ME-262 for bomber interception when the 4 30 mm mk 108 made it an ideal bomber interceptor.

The American redesign of the 20mm hispano caused so many problems they stuck with the 0.50 for longer than they otherwise would have.
 
the U.S. could not, for love nor money, manage to get something of that capability until well after the end of the war.
I don’t think the US ever did sort out a reliable fighter aircraft 20mm. Even as late as the F-8 Crusader, the 20mm guns had jamming problems.

Also didn’t the UK switch from the HS 20mm to the 30mm ADEN (a continuation of a German design)?

ric350
 
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I don’t think the US ever did sort out a reliable fighter aircraft 20mm. Even as late as the F-8 Crusader, the 20mm guns had jamming problems.

Also didn’t the UK switch from the HS 20mm to the 30mm ADEN (a continuation of a German design)?

ric350

The best US 20mm cannon was the M61 Vulcan. Granted, getting that for ww2 run-on-the-mill fighters will be a major task.
As for the UK, yes, they did make a switch to 30mm. French did the same. Soviets moved from 20mm towards mixed 37mm + 23mm by the jet age (and all-23mm battery on La-9 and -11), then to 30mm, then again to 23mm, and once again to 30mm; Chinese mostly copied them.
The early jet-age 23mm were probably the best tribute to the Madsen 23mm cannon.
 

CalBear

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I don’t think the US ever did sort out a reliable fighter aircraft 20mm. Even as late as the F-8 Crusader, the 20mm guns had jamming problems.

Also didn’t the UK switch from the HS 20mm to the 30mm ADEN (a continuation of a German design)?

ric350
Pretty much dead on.

Wasn't until the Vulcan that things were mostly put right. Now the treand is to go with a heavier round, even in a Gatling Gun, but I doubt that U.S. will climb onboard unless there is an actual replacement for the A-10, in that case I can see some serious effort into getting the same performance in a somewhat lighter package.

There is no kill like overkill.
All you need is "Open Fire" and "Cover me while I reload."

As tomo pauk has mentioned Tony Williams has written several articles on just this subject.

The expert opinion is that it is entirely possible.
Post-War almost everyone moved onto larger calibres.
(A Hawker Hunter technically outshoots anything)
I really miss having Tony as a regular contributor here.
 
The big trade-off is space and ammunition capacity
If you're going after heavy bombers a 30 mm is good but if you were going after fighters, it's limitations become apparent especially if you are outnumbered which was the problem the Germans were facing

Exactly what I was going to say. 30mm rounds with a low RoF and velocity made sense for the Germans primarily targeting big ass heavy bombers, but it wouldn’t be as useful for the Allies when they were primarily shooting down fighters and conducting air to ground attacks.

For ground targets, the Allies had those big 40mm gun pods and rockets to complement their 20mm’s and .50 cals.
 
It's always a trade off.

Rate of fire vs potency of ammunity vs weight in the plane.
That can be overcome with a different mechanism. Soviet/Russian designers use the Q-factor to evaluate how good a mechanism is in terms of rate of fire, potency of ammunition, and weight. It basically consists of the shell mass multiplied by the square of muzzle velocity (i.e. the muzzle energy), multiplied by the rate of fire, divided by weight of gun. This essentially calculates the muzzle energy the gun fires each second divided by weight, and is equivalent to the power-to-weight ratio of other engines. It is largely constant, as necking up a round to fire a larger shell with lower muzzle velocity will increase mass output, but reduce muzzle velocity and resulting in the same muzzle energy and thus Q-factor. Scaling up a gun will increase muzzle energy but the mass of parts and distances they need to travel (to clear and load the bigger rounds) will reduce rate of fire and increase weight, largely canceling out those benefits. A single mechanism when scaled to different calibers won't retain the exact same Q-factor, but it will remain within a relatively close range.
http://users.skynet.be/Emmanuel.Gustin/fgun/fgun-pe.html
http://users.skynet.be/Emmanuel.Gustin/fgun/fgun-po.html

But by using a mechanism with a higher Q-factor more power can be had without tradeoffs- either more muzzle energy, rate of fire, or lower weight (or all 3). This would require a postwar mechanism to improve on the Hispano Mk V's 13.7 and the Berezin B-20's 14.6 Q-factors. If remaining with linear cannons, the Colt Mk 12 (an improved but unreliable Hispano) had a Q-factor of 20.3, the NR-23 and NR-30 (same mechanism) had Q-factors of 19.3 and 28.3 respectively, and the AM-23 had a Q-factor of 19.3 as well. If someone invented the mechanism early, the 1980s-era GSh-30-1 has a Q-factor of 103, the highest Q-factor of any gun in existence, not just among linear cannons. These later mechanisms can have high muzzle energy without too much compromise in weight or rate of fire, with the GSh-30-1 being excellent in all 3 areas.
 
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