Teutonic Order becomes "Prussia"

[Rekjavik]

Inspired buy a former game of Europa Universalis 3, what possibilities are there that the State of the Teutonic Order would remain intact as an independent entity, but later become a monarchy, stretching from Danzig to Reval?

The nature of the monarchy itself, and whether it can be said to be called Prussia, is not the main point of this thread. The primary discussion point is how the Teutonic State can transfer from a monastic one to a kingdom.

 

[Zyzzyva]

Inspired buy a former game of Europa Universalis 3, what possibilities are there that the State of the Teutonic Order would remain intact as an independent entity, but later become a monarchy, stretching from Danzig to Reval?

The nature of the monarchy itself, and whether it can be said to be called Prussia, is not the main point of this thread. The primary discussion point is how the Teutonic State can transfer from a monastic one to a kingdom.

Pretty good, given as it's what happened. EUIII didn't just pull that out of its rear, you know.

 

[Valdemar II]

Pretty good, given as it's what happened. EUIII didn't just pull that out of its rear, you know.

Except he didn't get the Livonia part of the order. Which could be very interesting, because that would be big enough that it could be a real player in the Baltic.

 

[Rekjavik]

Pretty good, given as it's what happened. EUIII didn't just pull that out of its rear, you know.

Indeed, that did happen, but I ment for the Livonian Order to be included in this monarchy as well, as Valdemar II pointed out. I can see where the mistake was made.

Another matter was that the Duchy of Prussia was a Polish client, and the OP specifies that this should be avoided if possible, which it likely would given what is asked.

 

[Valdemar II]

The best way to make this succed are if Albert tried to (and succeded in) centralised the entire Order, into one state to better deal with potential threats from Poland-Lithuania. When he secularise it he the entire territorium end up in his hands.

 

[Askelion]

The best way to make this succed are if Albert tried to (and succeded in) centralised the entire Order, into one state to better deal with potential threats from Poland-Lithuania. When he secularise it he the entire territorium end up in his hands.

And one could possibly expect a situation similar to the Vatican OTL; with the Order itself cooperating with a secular Prussian government.

Very interesting.

 

[Boto von Ageduch]

Well, the military power of the Order was falling fast, especially in comparison to the secular states interested in the region (Denmark, Sweden, Poland).

Of course there are possibilities how the Order could do better, though a decline of their state seems unavoidable.

However, if you have a more successful order, why should they secularize?
Secularization IOTL was means to save the remainders of the Order State.
To save more, that would have to take place earlier, which is harder to imagine before Reformation (though not impossible).
Still, the outcome would be a weak entity, most probably also vasall to Poland, Lithuania, or Denmark.

 

[Askelion]

Well, the military power of the Order was falling fast, especially in comparison to the secular states interested in the region (Denmark, Sweden, Poland).

Of course there are possibilities how the Order could do better, though a decline of their state seems unavoidable.

However, if you have a more successful order, why should they secularize?
Secularization IOTL was means to save the remainders of the Order State.
To save more, that would have to take place earlier, which is harder to imagine before Reformation (though not impossible).
Still, the outcome would be a weak entity, most probably also vasall to Poland, Lithuania, or Denmark.

I see your point...but I imagine that The Monastic State would likely be secular in the way that the Vatican/Holy See government is. That is, not really secular except in the mundane affairs. The regular administration would likely fall to a secular gov't whilst everything else is handled by clergy.
And yeah, I agree that any late POD will probably see the Knights' power falling very quickly.

 

[Mr. BoJangles]

I started just before 1400 with Rupert I of Germany declaring the Teutonic Order to be an obsolete entity that was abusing the powers of the church.

by 1715 Großdeutschland is the one of the greatest empires in Europe... and a terrible war is about to start.