Surface raiders on the North Atlantic 1916-8

[Derek Jackson]

WI ships from the High Seas Fleet were sent out to raid British commerce. Obviously the HSF cound not take on the Grand Fleet. Equally the whole of the Grand Fleet could not have been with every convoy.

A convoy might be a better target for an armoured cruiser or a Battle Cruiser than individual merchant ships. The sort of escort sent to protect from Submarines would not be enough.

It might even have made convoys too dangerous.

I know perfectly well that most such raiders would eventually end up on the bottom of the sea but they would do the Kaiser's regime more good than they did just staying in port.

 

[Max Sinister]

You'd have to send them out before the Brits had set up the sea blockade in the Channel and the German Sea. And they'd have to be able to make the correct prediction that the Allies would introduce convoys so their ships would be safer from subs.

 

[Riain]

Germany's problem was that it ships had to pass through the Scotland-Norway and G-I-UK gaps or the Dover st-Channel-Cherbourg, giving the RN natural defence in depth. Thus it couldn't slip powerful units out into the Atlantic. But anything which could reduce the GFs superiority, whether by stripping it of capital ships or support units gives the HSF better odds in major engagements.

 

[Fellatio Nelson]

They'd soon run out of fuel and/or ammo and I doubt the Kaiser would want his best units destroyed piecemeal.

How long could any covert auxiliaries remain afloat? How could the warships get back to Germany?


I'd also be very concerned if I were a lone battlecruiser captain having to deal with a half-dozen torpedo-armed destroyers detached from a convoy, if not attacking then shadowing until the big boys turned up.

 

[Riain]

Covert supply ships lasted for ages during WW2. Convoys aren't escorted by destroyers beyond about 500 miles from their bases since they are built for speed not endurance. Escorts would have to be either bigger ships taken from the GF, or slow small escorts.

 

[Franz Josef II]

Germany didn't send out its navy ships, but it did send out raiders around this time: there was a freighter from South America I think that was seized by the Navy (I think it was Brazilian or something - hauling bananas) and converted to a raider. Lasted 'til 1918 and successfully made it back to port. I can't remember but I think she was called the Sea Wolf or something like that. Yeah, I know, there's computer games with that name, but this was for REAL. Can't remember the name of the book about her.

 

[Franz Josef II]

...Just a thought....

What if the East Asia Squadron survives and finds a friendly port? Continue raiding?

 

[David S Poepoe]

...Just a thought....

What if the East Asia Squadron survives and finds a friendly port? Continue raiding?

The nation would be asked if its going to join the Central Powers, and face the consequences, or declare its neutrality and send von Spee on his way. There were not that many nations in 1914 that couldn't be financially pressured by the British.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

This can't happen. A dreadnought is just too big and high-maintenance to use as a raider, and German BBs were designed for North Sea conditions, not the Atlantic. Their range was too small, and the crew would quickly degrade due to lack of accommodation and horrendous ship motion.

This would result in the quick destruction of the HSF.

 

[sumwhereinCA]

unless u weaken the British Navy or have the Germans gain a Naval upperhand in the beggning the war, both navies would stay at port. here is my idea on how to do this.

Admiral Jackie Fisher dies in the China Wars of 1859-1860. (in OTL he was injured but not killed). Thus the Admiral that would reform the British Navy to suit modern needs is out of the picture. The British, still feeling superior from its Navy exellence from the Napoleon Wars, barley update its Navy. All upgrades are done slowly. Charles Beresford takes over the Admiralty (OTL he instead fueded with Fisher and never made it to the Admiralty). The Dreadnaught is started after American and Japanese style ships are made and after the British gain intel that the Germans are creating a dreadnaught too. Im guessing that the British and the German Dreadnaughts would thus be made around the same time. Most of the older ships that Fisher decommissed instead stay in service, spreading the Royal Navies manpower thin. Submarines are not really introduced into the Royal Navy for the Admiralty did not enjoy a ship that could strike a cowardly blow at the enemy. Also the British are slower in creating their own destroyer and probally copy Spanish and Japanese style destroyers. Thus when World War 1 roles around, the British Navy is not at its top peak of excellence. The Royal Navy moves to blockade the German ports and the High Seas Fleet goes to assault them. The British Navy move in close to fire (OTL Jacky Fisher was the one that put an end to this practice), while the suprised German Captains begin to fire at long range. While the Royal Navy is able to stop the German breakout, the Royal Navy suffers terrible casaulties. This leads to holes in the blockade and ships from the High Seas Fleet are free to move out and assault British Commerce. This may prevent the sinking of the Lusitania as well as lessing the chance that the USA would enter the war. Lastly it would also allow the spread of German Proproganda, bathing the Neutral World in German and British proproganda instead of just British.

 

[David S Poepoe]

unless u weaken the British Navy or have the Germans gain a Naval upperhand in the beggning the war, both navies would stay at port. here is my idea on how to do this.

Admiral Jackie Fisher dies in the China Wars of 1859-1860. (in OTL he was injured but not killed). Thus the Admiral that would reform the British Navy to suit modern needs is out of the picture. The British, still feeling superior from its Navy exellence from the Napoleon Wars, barley update its Navy. All upgrades are done slowly. Charles Beresford takes over the Admiralty (OTL he instead fueded with Fisher and never made it to the Admiralty). The Dreadnaught is started after American and Japanese style ships are made and after the British gain intel that the Germans are creating a dreadnaught too. Im guessing that the British and the German Dreadnaughts would thus be made around the same time. Most of the older ships that Fisher decommissed instead stay in service, spreading the Royal Navies manpower thin. Submarines are not really introduced into the Royal Navy for the Admiralty did not enjoy a ship that could strike a cowardly blow at the enemy. Also the British are slower in creating their own destroyer and probally copy Spanish and Japanese style destroyers. Thus when World War 1 roles around, the British Navy is not at its top peak of excellence. The Royal Navy moves to blockade the German ports and the High Seas Fleet goes to assault them. The British Navy move in close to fire (OTL Jacky Fisher was the one that put an end to this practice), while the suprised German Captains begin to fire at long range. While the Royal Navy is able to stop the German breakout, the Royal Navy suffers terrible casaulties. This leads to holes in the blockade and ships from the High Seas Fleet are free to move out and assault British Commerce. This may prevent the sinking of the Lusitania as well as lessing the chance that the USA would enter the war. Lastly it would also allow the spread of German Proproganda, bathing the Neutral World in German and British proproganda instead of just British.

A few problems immediately apparent is that since the Britain predominately provided the Japanese with their warships wouldn't their designs be fairly similar?

 

[LordKalvan]

You'd have to send them out before the Brits had set up the sea blockade in the Channel and the German Sea. And they'd have to be able to make the correct prediction that the Allies would introduce convoys so their ships would be safer from subs.

Renaming the North sea might be included among the conditions of a reversed Versailles treaty; It should be written in Gothic alphabet, obviously.

 

[Michael B]

The nation would be asked if its going to join the Central Powers, and face the consequences, or declare its neutrality and send von Spee on his way. There were not that many nations in 1914 that couldn't be financially pressured by the British.

If I remember correctly, the legal position at the time was that a belligerent warship could enter a neutral port, but had to leave after twenty four hours. In that time, it could purchase supplies (assuming that any one will sell them) and do repairs. It then had to leave.

Obviously
1) the British did not need to use neutral ports, they had plenty of bases around the world
2) shells for guns are not really available
3) any local British consul can telegraph the Royal Navy and give them an update on the location of the raider
4) you can't repair shell damage in a few hours

When the twenty four hours are up, it is out and don't come back or we will intern you.

 

[Max Sinister]

Renaming the North sea might be included among the conditions of a reversed Versailles treaty; It should be written in Gothic alphabet, obviously.

In German, it's always Nordsee, but I definitely remember that it's at least sometimes also called German Sea in English.

 

[Grey Wolf]

In German, it's always Nordsee, but I definitely remember that it's at least sometimes also called German Sea in English.

Heligoland Bight is sometimes called the German Bight, at least in weather forecasts for shipping

Grey Wolf

 

[Johnnyreb]

Another point to add to Michael B's list is that the British could read the German naval codes.

Actually the Brits were concerned about something of the sort, or at the very least interruptions to the Anglo-Norwegian/Swedish traffic. This took place, with a battlecruiser raid (see the loss of HM Destroyers Strongbow and Mary Rose) and the Brits sowed an huge minefield from Scotland to Norway.

 

[Prinz Richard Eugen]

Stripping individual large units from the German fleet to act as commerce raiders would weaken a smaller fleet for it's main mission - an attack on the British fleet. No way would German naval leadership agree to weaken the fleet.

 

[Bill Cameron]

Another point to add to Michael B's list is that the British could read the German naval codes.

Johnnyreb,

True. In the run up to Jutland and thanks to radio intercepts, the Grand Fleet left Scapa before the High Seas Fleet left the Jade.

Actually the Brits were concerned about something of the sort, or at the very least interruptions to the Anglo-Norwegian/Swedish traffic. This took place, with a battlecruiser raid (see the loss of HM Destroyers Strongbow and Mary Rose) and the Brits sowed an huge minefield from Scotland to Norway.

True and false.

The RN, and later USN, routinely covered the Scandinavian convoys with dreadnought squadrons. The only time the USN would have or could have realistically tangled with the HSF was while supporting one of these convoys.

The North Sea mine barrage however was a US project aimed at submarines and not a UK project aimed at surface ships. The UK thought, correctly, that the mine barrage was a waste of resources but allowed the US to build it as long as the US alone paid for it. The barrage had important friends in Washington, one of them was FDR.


Bill

 

[sumwhereinCA]

A few problems immediately apparent is that since the Britain predominately provided the Japanese with their warships wouldn't their designs be fairly similar?

actually the first "destroyer" (the Katoka) was built in Britain from Japanese designs. The Katoka was than delievered to Japan. Also the Japanese built the first all gun battleship (the Satsuma).

 

[pacifichistorian]

WI ships from the High Seas Fleet were sent out to raid British commerce. Obviously the HSF cound not take on the Grand Fleet. Equally the whole of the Grand Fleet could not have been with every convoy.

A convoy might be a better target for an armoured cruiser or a Battle Cruiser than individual merchant ships. The sort of escort sent to protect from Submarines would not be enough.

It might even have made convoys too dangerous.

Uhh, convoys weren't introduced until 1917 OTL...

Germany's problem was that it ships had to pass through the Scotland-Norway and G-I-UK gaps or the Dover st-Channel-Cherbourg, giving the RN natural defence in depth. Thus it couldn't slip powerful units out into the Atlantic.

They managed quite nicely in WW2. Or was the WW1 blockade closer & tighter? I'm thinking the likes of Atlantis, less of Bismarck.

They'd soon run out of fuel and/or ammo and I doubt the Kaiser would want his best units destroyed piecemeal.

How long could any covert auxiliaries remain afloat? How could the warships get back to Germany?

It was quite possible for merchantmen to rdv with raiders (maybe less in WW1...) to provide supplies. OTL WW2, it happened fairly frequently. And you get supplies from the ships you attack. Unlike subs, the objective isn't only to sink 'em, it's to find valuable cargoes & send 'em home as prizes.

I'd also be very concerned if I were a lone battlecruiser captain having to deal with a half-dozen torpedo-armed destroyers detached from a convoy, if not attacking then shadowing until the big boys turned up.

I'd be more worried as a DD skipper about having my ship shot out from under me by a CC's 8", 10", or 11" against my 4" or 5" (comparative...) peashooters. (Presuming CCs; an AMC might be more worried, but even AMCs had 6".) Plus, a CC or AMC has aircraft, so he can avoid contact before I even know he's around--or know for sure it's just an AMC & not an 11" CB that VS belongs to...