Sun Yat Sen's family claimed descent from the Ming nobility, a claim which many in his village made and was likely. Now, assuming that the Qing never overthrew the Ming, would Sun Yat Sen possibly have become an important Ming official, and even emperor in his lifetime (he led the movement to overthrow possibly fragrantly corrupt Ming emperor in his lifetime).
Sun Yat Sen, Ming Official
- Thread starter AlternateHistoryFan
- Start date
You do realize he would be butterflied entirely by the Qing never rising, right?
BUM BUM BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUM
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We don't know this for certain. I think Sun's high conscience was one of the things that made him into a great leader. He could. for all purposes and intents, have caught the attention of a Ming emperor also trying to modernize.
Sun Yat Sun WON'T exist at AT ALL because of the butterflies.
YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND! SUN HAS BEEN FATED BY THE HEAVENS! HE SHALL SAVE CHINA FROM WESTERN IMPERIALISM!
LONG LIVE SUN YAT-SEN! LONG LIVE THE KUOMINTANG!
D)YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND! SUN HAS BEEN FATED BY THE HEAVENS! HE SHALL SAVE CHINA FROM WESTERN IMPERIALISM!
LONG LIVE SUN YAT-SEN! LONG LIVE THE KUOMINTANG!
Thanksk for backing me up, zeppplin! Much obliged, sir
The Sun Yat Sen stand-in ITTL would either rise far because of his charisma and reformist outlook, get sacked early on by other squabbling minor officials looking to cut down threats to their power, get ganked by the govt for being too "radical".
IOW whatever your heart's content for an ATL premise!
IOW whatever your heart's content for an ATL premise!
Thanksk for backing me up, zeppplin! Much obliged, sir
(AHF, you misunderstood me - I also believe Sun staying around when Ming dynasty is also around is more or less impossible. Even a horde of ASBs can't save him - I'm sorry, AHF. Our hero cannot win this time.
)Well, given that 'Sun Yat-sen' was a name he picked, not quite at random, as an adult, any Chinese person hosted by the Nakayama family could end up with that name.
Oops. Any Chinese person who spoke ?Cantonese? could end up with that name.
(Isn't Mandarin for those characters Zhong-shan?)
I speak Cantonese.I believe Zhongshan is his real name while Yat Sen seems to be other names he had used as a pseudonym.
My mistake,it seems Yat Sen and Zhongshan are all pseudonyms.
Well,back in the days I spent in Hong Kong,the people there commonly referred to him as Zhongshan.
And MY mistake was to think that "Yat Sen" and "Zhongshan" were different pronunciations of the same characters.
So it looks like both of us were off, in different directions.
(AHF, you misunderstood me - I also believe Sun staying around when Ming dynasty is also around is more or less impossible. Even a horde of ASBs can't save him - I'm sorry, AHF. Our hero cannot win this time.
I knw you were jokoing around, zeppelin. I rally appreciate the humor, tho!!
Did someone really just ask this?
OMFG someone did.
Obama would be MORE than completely butterflied by sun yat sen just ruling, not even counting that both wouldn't even exist because the pod is so far back with so many consequences.
Gonna pivot this thread's topic:
What if Sun Yat-Sen's goals was not to declare a constitutional republic, but to establish a constitutional monarchy, but not a new dynasty, but the revival of the Ming? But not because of ancestral family connections or anything, more of an anti-Qing/Han nationalist/don't rock the boat too much by abolishing the entire Confucian imperial system thing.
I also have to wonder why proposals to extend the Ming get brought up so much on this site. My guess is that as the last ruling Han dynasty, and the one closest to modernity, they had the most potential to continue. And because the Qing were Manchu, and seen as outsiders, there was Ming nostalgia that continued for generations even after that dynasty had fallen.
So I guess in 1911 if you were gonna continue the dynastic system- better to claim it as a restoration of the Ming, rather than an entirely new one? Establishing a new one didn't help Yuan Shikai.
What if Sun Yat-Sen's goals was not to declare a constitutional republic, but to establish a constitutional monarchy, but not a new dynasty, but the revival of the Ming? But not because of ancestral family connections or anything, more of an anti-Qing/Han nationalist/don't rock the boat too much by abolishing the entire Confucian imperial system thing.
I also have to wonder why proposals to extend the Ming get brought up so much on this site. My guess is that as the last ruling Han dynasty, and the one closest to modernity, they had the most potential to continue. And because the Qing were Manchu, and seen as outsiders, there was Ming nostalgia that continued for generations even after that dynasty had fallen.
So I guess in 1911 if you were gonna continue the dynastic system- better to claim it as a restoration of the Ming, rather than an entirely new one? Establishing a new one didn't help Yuan Shikai.
