Sun Yat Sen and the ROC: Rise to Great Glory

AlternateHistoryFan

Hi everyone. I'm new (less than 1 day registered) as a registered poster this website, although I've been following this site and thinking of my own alternate histories, long before I stumbled onto this awesome site.

I have long been a big fan of Sun Yat Sen and what he did/tried to do for the nation of China and what he might have succeeded in doing if he didn't die such an untimely death. No doubt he was a much more humane, honest, having of humility, generous, and visionary leader than Chiang Kai Shek. As a Taiwanese, I'm aware of Chiang's mass crimes he committed in China and in Taiwan, and hate the guy's ultra-conservatism. He wasn't fit to rule!! Therefore, I will also be purging him much of this story--he will in fact get the death sentence from China's GuoFu (Sun Yat Sen as the "Father of Republican China"), for attempting to carry out a coup with the KMT far-right fanatics who think of Sun as an overyl liberal leader.

I've decided to post my ATL story with 4 major divergence points.

POD1: The Guangxu Emperor has D.E. CiCi poisoned for trying to carry out a coup against him. Thus, nobody effectively stands in the way of hi carrrying out the 100 Days of Reform, greatly modernizing China quicker than in OTL. He hires Sun Yat Sen as foreign minister, giving Sun some ample time to practice politicswith ample power. Guangxu dies early in his thirties, and the whole country mourns him for having restored their sense of dignity. His successor ruled like highly selfish despot and squandered the greatly increased Chinese national strength Gunaxu ahd achieved. Sun Yat Sen is highly sickened and lead a revolution that successfully throws out this corrupt emperor and creates a republic.

POD2: Sun realizes early on what a major asshole Chiang Kai Shek is and decides that having him around will only undermine the Republican Unified Nation cause; thus he relegates him to a sinecure position and appoints someone else as his right-hand general.

POD3: Sun never has cancer in this ATL, so lives at least until the end of the Sino-Japanese War.

POD4: The Japanese Empire is even more aggressive in East Asia than in OTL. The US gets very concerned and realizes it needs to friend China in order to counter Japan in Asia. In the middle of the Sino-Japanese War, Sun Yat Sen meets Franklin D. Roosevelt and the top hit it off; Sun deeply impresses with his knowledge of American English, American culture, and American politics. He covinces FDR that China has the potential to the the United States of the Asian region. Soong Ching-Ling and Eleanor Roosevelt get along very well. Roosevelt sends along lots of military, economic, industrial, and political advisors to strengthen China. China is able to develop, along with its Guangxu-era strengthenings, an even stronger army, navy, and the world's first independent airforce. China manufactiures indigensouly-designed military hardware, in some cases even superior to their US counterparts. Imperial Japan will have a hellish time in China during WW2. :-D
 

LeX

Sun Yat-sen was also something of a figurehead/manager for the overall Chinese republican movement, rather than some universally respected strongman. What the military man Chiang Kai-shek was for the fragile coalition of warlords (and nominally, the Communists), is what Sun the revolutionary was for China's complex array of political actors (including the Communists). Had Sun not died, he would have continued to face the issue of disunity within the KMT, particularly from the communist side. We know how Chiang Kai-shek handled this matter—the question is whether Sun can handle it differently while still remaining in power.
 
MrP

MrP

Banned
AlternateHistoryFan said:
Hmmmmmmmmm................I think you pointed this out validly. I'll try to reduce it down to only 2 PODs :D.
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You'll have to bring it down to just one, old boy. Any of the four will do, really.

Meanwhile you might want to have a look this TL for reference: The Legacy of Sun Yat-sen by Faeelin.

There's also this TL about an alternate post-Qing China that ends up with a new dynasty instead of a republic.

Finally, welcome to the board :)
 
Indicus

Indicus

Restrict the TL to one POD. You can easily butterfly Sun Yat-sen getting cancer with an early POD. Same goes with the more aggressive Japan. I think you should do some research on this topic and then come back to this TL after doing so.
 

abc123

Banned
fjihr said:
Restrict the TL to one POD. You can easily butterfly Sun Yat-sen getting cancer with an early POD. Same goes with the more aggressive Japan. I think you should do some research on this topic and then come back to this TL after doing so.
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Agreed....;)
 

AlternateHistoryFan

abc123 said:
IMO, more than 1 POD qualifies the TL for ASB or Writer section.
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Thanks for pointing this out too. Can you explain how the ASB (what's it stand for?) and Writer Sections are different in terms of writing fan-made historical fiction? Appreciate your feedback very much, my fellow alternate history enthusiast, abc :)
 

AlternateHistoryFan

LeX said:
Sun Yat-sen was also something of a figurehead/manager for the overall Chinese republican movement, rather than some universally respected strongman. What the military man Chiang Kai-shek was for the fragile coalition of warlords (and nominally, the Communists), is what Sun the revolutionary was for China's complex array of political actors (including the Communists). Had Sun not died, he would have continued to face the issue of disunity within the KMT, particularly from the communist side. We know how Chiang Kai-shek handled this matter—the question is whether Sun can handle it differently while still remaining in power.
Click to expand...

True-- thinking of those two labels, I think that's an accurate assessment of Sun in OTL. Tho part of me wonders whether or not, if Sun had lived past his date of death in OTL, if he would have developed into one eventually. I think Sun, based on his personality, would've acted in a more forthright and moderate way , that would've made the communists look like murderous assholes for acting against him first like they probably would've eventually, b/ he had more patience and flexibility in dealing w/ those he disagreed with than Chiang Kai Shek. '

Chiang's asshole IDEAL method of settling disputes with his ideological opponents was to: shoot them as soon as he could do so safely, shoot them with the strongest gun, and shoot them until they were certainly dead (yeah, as you can all probably tell and I mentioned before, I despise irresponsible and selfish despots like Old Man Chiang). I'm thinking, if Sun Yat Sen lived longer, he eventually might have appealed to a more progressive and honest military man, like Pai Chung-Hsi (Bai Chongxi) or Li Chung-Ren (Li Tsung-Ren), to be his right-hand military subordinate, after realizing that Chiang was a real jerk. I know that in OTL, Sun strongly disliked Chiang's imeptuous personality and his intolerance towards others. However, he felt that, AT THAT TIME, Chiang just happened to be the military figure for the job. Li was an early admirer of Sun Yat Sen and the KMT, and I think he would've been loyal to Sun b/c Sun treated people MUCH MORE kindly than Chiang in general.
 

AlternateHistoryFan

MrP said:
You'll have to bring it down to just one, old boy. Any of the four will do, really.

Meanwhile you might want to have a look this TL for reference: The Legacy of Sun Yat-sen by Faeelin.

There's also this TL about an alternate post-Qing China that ends up with a new dynasty instead of a republic.

Finally, welcome to the board :)
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Hi, MrP! Fair enough for this section, lol :). Thanks for approving of the four different scenarios as all feasible ones to diverge from.

I have indeed read Faeelin's Legacy of Sun Yat Sen and loved it! Thanks for recommending it--I'll be re-reading it this week to draw more inspiration for
SYS+The ROC's Rise To Great Glory.

I dunno if I've come across the latter yet, but I'll definitely check it out too.

Thank you kindly for the welcome, sir. Very glad to be here!!
 

AlternateHistoryFan

fjihr said:
Restrict the TL to one POD. You can easily butterfly Sun Yat-sen getting cancer with an early POD. Same goes with the more aggressive Japan. I think you should do some research on this topic and then come back to this TL after doing so.
Click to expand...

Hello, fjihr. I agree with the possibilities to butterfly those scenarios with early PODs. I have definitely been doing some research, including using other thread with similar ideas, for this. Will als be doing more, of course. Half of the battle for writing alternate history is being imaginative, the other is researching the OTL events to make the divergences sound and logical.
 

abc123

Banned
AlternateHistoryFan said:
Thanks for pointing this out too. Can you explain how the ASB (what's it stand for?) and Writer Sections are different in terms of writing fan-made historical fiction? Appreciate your feedback very much, my fellow alternate history enthusiast, abc :)
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Well, ASB stands for Alien Space Bats, that means that the POD is so unplausible that it needs intervention of Alien Space Bats to happen. Sort of Deus ex machina. Per example, POD where China invents time machine and then sends gazillion Kalashnikov rifles to Qing Empire in 1840 to defeat the British is ASB.
There's a separate section of this forum for such TLs.

Link for ASB section: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/forumdisplay.php?f=9

Writer's section is for PODs that are not so unbelievable as ASB, but are unplausible enough, so that section gives little more space for creativity in PODs.

Link for Writers section:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/forumdisplay.php?f=8

And welcome to the board.
 
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MrP

MrP

Banned
abc123 said:
Writer's section is for PODs that are not so unbelievable as ASB, but are unplausible enough, so that section gives little more space for creativity in PODs.
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The purpose of the Writers' Forum must have changed while I was gone. As I remember it, it's for AH works that focus on storytelling rather than the nuts-and-bolts of the ATL--plausibility is not a criterion either way as far as I'm aware.
 

AlternateHistoryFan

abc123 said:
Well, ASB stands for Alien Space Bats, that means that the POD is so unplausible that it needs intervention of Alien Space Bats to happen. Sort of Deus ex machina. Per example, POD where China invents time machine and then sends gazillion Kalashnikov rifles to Qing Empire in 1840 to defeat the British is ASB.
There's a separate section of this forum for such TLs.

Link for ASB section: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/forumdisplay.php?f=9

Writer's section is for PODs that are not so unbelievable as ASB, but are unplausible enough, so that section gives little more space for creativity in PODs.

Link for Writers section:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/forumdisplay.php?f=8

And welcome to the board.
Click to expand...

Okay--yeah I've heard of the Alien Space Bats phenomenon before. And thanks again, man!
 

AlternateHistoryFan

MrP said:
The purpose of the Writers' Forum must have changed while I was gone. As I remember it, it's for AH works that focus on storytelling rather than the nuts-and-bolts of the ATL--plausibility is not a criterion either way as far as I'm aware.
Click to expand...

Wow. Ah--I get it now; Pretty clear.

TY again.
 

AlternateHistoryFan

GlobalHumanism said:
Don't be deterred though! :)

It'd be great to see such an idea fleshed out.

Just do some research and round out your POD
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Cool--I'm glad you look forward to me developing the idea more.

I won't, GlobalHumanism! :)

I will do just those.

Thanks for encouraging so highly and supportively, GlobalHumanism. Cya around in the althist threads, my friend ;).
 

AlternateHistoryFan

Wow. I've only been posting for less than 2 days and already so many of you have commented so supportively and constructively on my thread--appreciate it very much, fellow alternate histoiry enthusiasts! Frankly, I didn't know if I was going to have any members reply at all, let alone this many!! :)

I am very grateful for a site like this to exist and for readers and/or writers like you all, that frequent it. Before I ever posted, I had read the forums a bit and come across many readers acting very politely, courteously, and constricutively supportingly of others' works, and I feel very fortunate to be one of the recipients of such welcome feedback. Of course, if you truly :Dfeel that something I'm writing is crap, don;t hesitate to notify me preferrably on the polite side :D.

--Sean
 
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