Stalin dies before he can purge anyone!

Thande

Donor
Not intended as a lazy Variation Thread but as a serious WI.

Stalin dies in some really ignominious way, like falling down the stairs, at the end of 1936. I.e. the Nazis have already gained power in Germany, but before the Great Purge happened.

So:

  1. Who succeeds Stalin?
  2. How does that person rule the USSR?
  3. How is the history of the end of the 1930s altered? Is this different USSR less threatening, leading to the Western powers being less tolerant of Hitler as a bulwark, or what?
  4. If the Nazis invade this USSR, do they do better or worse than OTL?

With regards to the last one, on the one hand you have a lot more competent people who were purged or gulag'd in OTL, but on the other the USSR might not industrialise (and shift industry to the Urals) as fast without Stalin's monomania and ruthlessness driving it.

Thoughts?
 
Yagoda would be my guess as to who would take over in 1936 (partly because if Stalin fell down a flight of stairs in '36, Yagoda probably pushed him:D). Most of the guys we usually hear about in Stalinist Russia (Molotov, Kaganovich, Zhukov, Yezhov, Beria, etc.) weren't in power or well known in 1936.
 
If Stalin's heirs decide to just call the whole thing off and turn into a socialist democracy? Nothing. The European establishment tells Hitler to sit down and shut up or they will kill him, with or without the assistance of the German army, what there is of it in 1936.
Then they lean on Japan. Probably in a reasonably nonviolent way involving a naval blockade that outnumbers the Japanese navy about four to one, based in Russia and China ports for convenience.
The nicest alternate histories are also the most boring.
 
Well, if Stalin dies before he offs Kirov in a show-trial, (which is usually considered the start-point of the purges) Then Kirov would probably be the one tipped to replace Stalin. I don't think they'd revert to social democracy or anything- I think the USSR would definitely remain, although Kirov might pursue a policy of Destalinization similar to that of Khruschev, and would probably not push the country as hard as Stalin planned with his Second and Third Five-year plans.

A much-less industrialized USSR, then, but also one with a fully intact leadership corp, and possibly improved morale. As for the Third Reich, I don't think Stalin's death would really derail his plans much, and i seriously doubt it would suddenly give the then western powers more spine to oppose Hitler's plans. They might be more reticient to support his German revivalism, but as a cynic I still think the Americans would invest in him and his country, and Hitler would probably launch his planned Drang nach Ost in 1940, rather than 1939, once everything was good and ready.

From there, only the butterflies can really estimate who'd win between Kirov/Yagoda's USSR and the Third Reich.
 
Yagoda would be my guess as to who would take over in 1936 (partly because if Stalin fell down a flight of stairs in '36, Yagoda probably pushed him:D).
Yagoda had neither ambitions nor support within Party and army ranks to become leader, he was your typical "Chief of Security Police" type. And he would perish 1st, most likely, as he was well hated by great many powerful.
Most of the guys we usually hear about in Stalinist Russia (Molotov, Kaganovich, Zhukov, Yezhov, Beria, etc.) weren't in power or well known in 1936.
Molotov & Kaganovich were at very top by 1936 (Moscow Metro had been named after Kaganovich, and it was very prestigious project, huge industrial city of Perm had been renamed after Molotov in 1940), but my guess is that Kaganovich not top enough to pretend to be #1. Molotov, on the flip side, was presumed #2 . Zhukov was relatively unimportant army commander, definitely shadowed by Civil War generation (Blyukher, Tukhachevsky, Yegorov, Uborevich, Yakir & Co.). Yezhov is passing figure, Stalin's marionette IOTL, as many chances of him becoming #1 as for Nazi to pot man on the moon by 1940. Beria was a rising star, but not high enough. For a full list of Stalin's Politburo see http://www.cyberussr.com/rus/polit37.html and http://www.cyberussr.com/rus/polit-hist.html

So I would guess, assuming that Party-centric model is preserved, which is by no means assured, it should be Molotov or Zhdanov. However, I'm of opinion that nobody was big enough to fill Stalin's shoes, so some kind of "Collective Leadership" system will be created. Off the bat, triumvirate of Molotov-Kaganovich-Voroshilov, with Molotov having slight lead.

Well, if Stalin dies before he offs Kirov in a show-trial, (which is usually considered the start-point of the purges) Then Kirov would probably be the one tipped to replace Stalin.
Kirov hadn't been shot, he died from assasssination (well, rumours that Stalin ordered it were circulating for decades, but nothing is definitely proven). Leningrad Purges were raging in 1934-1936, but trials of Kamenev, Zinoviev & Co. are traditionally considered starting point of the Big Purge.

I don't think they'd revert to social democracy or anything- I think the USSR would definitely remain, although Kirov might pursue a policy of Destalinization similar to that of Khruschev, and would probably not push the country as hard as Stalin planned with his Second and Third Five-year plans.
I share the opinion that no revert to SocDem model would be in order in Kirov's USSR, as (1) Kirov was more googly-eyed revolutionary than Stalin and (2) socialist system seemed to be working in those times and as late as early 1960s. So there's no readon for them to drop the dogma which looks like working.

A much-less industrialized USSR, then, but also one with a fully intact leadership corp, and possibly improved morale. As for the Third Reich, I don't think Stalin's death would really derail his plans much, and i seriously doubt it would suddenly give the then western powers more spine to oppose Hitler's plans. They might be more reticient to support his German revivalism, but as a cynic I still think the Americans would invest in him and his country, and Hitler would probably launch his planned Drang nach Ost in 1940, rather than 1939, once everything was good and ready.
Leaving Kirov aside (he was 2+ years dead by the end of 1936) I mostly agree with you. The evil Genie of Nazism is out of the bottle by this time, so to speak, and nothing short of WWII can stop it. Soviet Union would be somewhat weaker due to year or two lost to sort out leadership issues after Stalin's death, but in different shape in terms of military leadership (I would not dare to say "in better shape", as a lot of purged generals were Civil War-era monstruosities, "Great Purges and Red Army's readiness for WWII" being one of current hottest topics of Russian military history). My guess is that stuff will go worse for USSR in WWII, but would it be bad enough to tip the scales? I dunno. What I do know, however, is that USSR manages to win against Nazi, post-war settlement would be less favourite than one Stalin hammered. I'd say best estimate is OTL 1940 border and Finlandized Poland and Romania, but probability of latter part is quite low.
 
or... what if Trotsky returns from exile and somehow becomes the leader of Soviet Union after Stalin's death?? :D
 
or... what if Trotsky returns from exile and somehow becomes the leader of Soviet Union after Stalin's death?? :D
This would be an interesting Wi, but I think that chances of this event happening are rather slim. Trotskyites are truly smashed by 1936, removed from all positions of importance and happy to survive (most of them in GULAG). So no support for Trotsky in army or among Party apparat. He might try to stage a comeback counting on his charisma, but I afraid he's not gonna pull it.

P.S. It would be an interesting TL if somebody removes Stalin around 1929-1934 and Trotsky returns to pwer (while he can).
 
I'd guess you would revert to the situation from Lenin's death untill Stalin really consolidated his power. Large group of people with fair divergent views. The problem is the shadow of Stalin in OTL kind of influenced all these individuals. No one was going to jump up and down to mark themselves out as a potential successor since thats the quickest way to get shot. Molotov for example always struck me as too simple to go for the leadership but its quite possible he was acting to save his own skin. Zinoviev and co would have possibly had a good shout but I suppose they have just been purged.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Crash industrialization began with collectivization in either 1928 or 1930, so would only continue as everyone supported it. The USSR will not be less industrialized in 1941 if Stalin is killed in 1936.
 
Crash industrialization began with collectivization in either 1928 or 1930, so would only continue as everyone supported it.
Yes, but a lot of decisions will be ultimately delayed in those 2-3 years after Stalin's death spent on sorting out leadership issues. And often less optimal but timely decision is better than no decision at all. So pace of industrialization will go down for some time (it happened after Stalin's death IOTL, fortunately there were no war in 1955 to punish USSR for OTL waffling).
 
Stalin would be seen more as a important but overall minor figure in Soviet history than as an evil monster or hero. With Stalin dying in 1936 the concept of one man dictatorship might not be so discredited long term in Soviet Politics.
 
If Stalin's heirs decide to just call the whole thing off and turn into a socialist democracy?

And if I gained 8 inches in height, 100 pounds of muscle and developed crazy football skills I could become MLB for the Pittsburg Steelers and the odds of that happening are little worse than what you are suggesting here. On Stalin's death all of the people on top would be falling all over each other to become #1 and aren't about to hand over power to "the masses".
 
I think the Kirov idea is plausible. But the leadership aside, even with slower industrialization, the USSR would probably be better off. Honestly, 3 out of 5 Marshals of the Soviet Union were purged. There would be far better and more leadership with out the Purges.

Molotov would be gone and so would his Pact. That makes things more difficult for Hitler.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Yagoda would be my guess as to who would take over in 1936 (partly because if Stalin fell down a flight of stairs in '36, Yagoda probably pushed him:D). Most of the guys we usually hear about in Stalinist Russia (Molotov, Kaganovich, Zhukov, Yezhov, Beria, etc.) weren't in power or well known in 1936.
What? Molotov and Kaganovich were very well known and powerful by '36; they oversaw Collectivization, for example.

If Stalin dies before the Purges, Tukhachevsky may very well launch a coup (that rumor actually has more credence that it is often afforded). In fact, I'd say that's the most likely scenario since Tukhachevsky is well loved and he loathed Stalin's clique. Whether he kills them all off or not is up in the air, but there's an awfully good chance.

If not Tukhy, then probably a troika between Molotov, Kaganovich, and Yagoda. Yagoda's not going to seize power because he wasn't really the power-grabby type; he cared more about the perks than responsibility/authority.
 
What? Molotov and Kaganovich were very well known and powerful by '36; they oversaw Collectivization, for example.

If Stalin dies before the Purges, Tukhachevsky may very well launch a coup (that rumor actually has more credence that it is often afforded). In fact, I'd say that's the most likely scenario since Tukhachevsky is well loved and he loathed Stalin's clique. Whether he kills them all off or not is up in the air, but there's an awfully good chance.

If not Tukhy, then probably a troika between Molotov, Kaganovich, and Yagoda. Yagoda's not going to seize power because he wasn't really the power-grabby type; he cared more about the perks than responsibility/authority.

Yep, seeing that Stalin is dead before he turns on Tukhachevsky I was going to nominate him, but you beat me to it.

How necessary is it for Tukhachevsky to have a coup and rule in his own exclusive name, versus playing the game the way Lenin intended and merely be a part of a ruling committee?

Tukhachevsky would weigh in on behalf of the military and rising technocracy--Tupolev (and on a lower level, Sergei Korolev, as a protege of Tupolev's) went down--fortunately for him and the USSR, not fatally--in the wake of Stalin's takedown of Tukhachevsky. Thinking well of the latter man as I do, I like to think that with Stalin gone, he sets aside all thought of a coup, which if he was plotting would have been more about saving Russia and the Revolution than self-glorification, and resolves to throw his influence behind rebuilding the Party leadership as a central committee which can, by allowing diversity and debate among itself, restore the "democratic" part of Lenin's "democratic centralism." So he seeks allies who represent other factional interests within in the Soviet Union to balance himself; they all agree to rein in the power of the secret police and subject investigations of alleged disloyalty to careful central oversight.

Keeping Tukhachevsky and his proteges in place in the military ought to offset quite a bit of material shortfalls relative to OTL when Hitler finally does attack (as I am sure he must eventually). Keeping his technological proteges in place might have a bit less helpful impact since OTL Stalin kept them handy in sharastras (sp?)--concentration camps for technically talented people, where they were put to work on their specialties instead of the usual Gulag labor. Still, one would think that with the confidence of the regime behind them they'd do a bit better work. Less intense push for official Plan targets might actually result in more useful products actually available anyway, if a bit of realism in setting goals comes with more realistically strict demand that these more sane goals actually be met, with less de facto margin for corruption and inefficiency.

The big butterfly then--since the greater competence and moral solidity of a coalition Kremlin might be offset by less pressure on the Soviet workforce to perform at all costs--would be politics. Presumably a coalition Kremlin would pursue a Popular Front foreign policy against Hitler. Assuming that Hitler is totally unmoved by the change in regime in Russia, and the western European Versailles powers also are unimpressed by the change of cast there, presumably things would go much as OTL in the west--meaning that Litvinov's blandishments for a firm stand against Hitler at Munich go unheeded and Hitler gets Sudentenland, and then gobbles up Bohemia and takes proxy control of the rest of Czechoslovakia as OTL (except for the parts minor allies like Poland and Hungary seize.)

What then? OTL Stalin, the supreme cynic, switched over to an alliance with Hitler, and his totalitarian control was such that Russia followed suit with scarcely a murmur behind him (and I only say "scarcely" because I have read the muted murmurs of dissent in diaries and the like in my Soviet history class--but carefully muffled they were!) Can a coalition of people like Tukhachevsky, Kirov, Molotov, et al even do that if they want to? Or must Russia stand back aloof, glowering at everyone to the West, the Nazis and the perfid bourgeois nations alike?

That wouldn't be such a bad position for them to take actually. Close the borders, sit back and watch. I think with or without a pact with the USSR Hitler would attack Poland more or less on schedule anyway. The Soviets won't want to invade Poland from the east only to engage Hitler immediately--but they just might. Or ask the Poles if they would like a little effective help that their western allies can't unfortunately give them. They might be told no--then invade anyway to get some depth for their defenses, and unapologetically negotiate a cease-fire with Hitler telling the West forthrightly that it is none of their business since they were no help. The Poles might say yes, in which case after some nasty battles on the front Hitler might offer a truce (not being ready for Barbarossa yet, what with France on his borders and all) again with similar results--part of Poland "protected" by the Soviets, the rest conquered by Hitler. The Poles in the East would be angry the Soviets gave up but probably things could be a lot less ugly between them and the Soviets OTL.

Or the war might stay hot between Hitler and the Soviets from that point on, going back and forth--it certainly would put a spike in Hitler's plans for dealing with the west first before concentrating on attacking Russia.

I can see the Soviets committing only the minimum of forces necessary to hold Hitler at bay as long as the battlefield was Poland anyway, only putting in really big forces if it looked like the western Entente was going to prevail and start advancing into Germany itself. They'd be roundly criticized and hated ITTL for their cynical behavior by Poles and westerners alike.

Perhaps they'd have AH posts seventy years later about how much more decisive Stalin would have been.:rolleyes:
 
...
Kirov hadn't been shot, he died from assasssination (well, rumours that Stalin ordered it were circulating for decades, but nothing is definitely proven). Leningrad Purges were raging in 1934-1936, but trials of Kamenev, Zinoviev & Co. are traditionally considered starting point of the Big Purge.....

Wish I'd read you more carefully before posting above, but I was skimming for mention of Tukhachevsky. Right, Kirov is long gone.

...Soviet Union would be somewhat weaker due to year or two lost to sort out leadership issues after Stalin's death, but in different shape in terms of military leadership (I would not dare to say "in better shape", as a lot of purged generals were Civil War-era monstruosities, "Great Purges and Red Army's readiness for WWII" being one of current hottest topics of Russian military history). My guess is that stuff will go worse for USSR in WWII, but would it be bad enough to tip the scales? I dunno. What I do know, however, is that USSR manages to win against Nazi, post-war settlement would be less favourite than one Stalin hammered. I'd say best estimate is OTL 1940 border and Finlandized Poland and Romania, but probability of latter part is quite low.

Oh, I don't know about the weakness of the pre-Purge army command, compared to the political hacks Stalin preferred--or at any rate, I think Tukhachevsky was fixing to change all that, about to conduct a purge of his own--presumably one that would have the less competent generals cashiered rather than shot outright. I think that was one reason Stalin turned on him when he did, and one reason he was able to get away with it--lots of not-so-good old warhorses sensed their careers were in jeopardy from Tukhachevsky's handpicked Young Turks and were glad to see that threat gone.

I think that it all would have been a wash initially, except that when Hitler finally did strike at the USSR for keeps, they'd have been much less taken by surprise and Tukhachevsky would shake down the command structure fast. Barbarossa would have been less spectacularly successful in the outset, the German advance would be slower and bog down sooner and start getting pushed back sooner, with less overall loss of Soviet lives. And the Russians would be that much farther ahead, possibly already in Germany by D-Day.

So I'd predict the opposite, a much stronger Soviet position when the Third Reich is ended, with Russian armies farther west. And possibly with a lot more moral legitimacy than OTL, with more genuine support from broader sectors of the liberated peoples of the East--who might more generally see themselves as actually liberated.

Even if the death of Stalin greatly sets back industrialization and opens up dangerous political fissures in Soviet leadership, still I think it would have to be very bad indeed to leave them in a worse position circa 1945.

But there might be a slim line indeed between that kind of weakening that makes survival a near-run thing, and the total collapse of the Soviet regime before Hitler even attacks.

So I'd rather err on the side of Soviet-wank myself since the alternative might be a successful Nazi conquest.:eek:
 
In pure military-economic terms

Russian mechanised units perform a fair bit better, since their command remains alive and intact and there may be more focus on producing spare parts and other infrastructure rather than simply making as many tanks as possible as stalinist production target culture dictated.
The USSR is not surprised by a german attack and is at full military readiness for it.

Overall in 1941 the panzer divisions i particular take heavier casualties, russians take less. With less soviet tanks and more spare parts and better comanders actions like the battle of brody
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Brody_(1941) might still be defeats, but would probably be tighter ones which would slow down the panzer spearheads much more.
Likewise the germans would be hard pressed to repeat the successes of operation blue in 42 against a better organised russian command.

That said 36 still gives you wider butterflies to consider, such as the fact that the USSR may not even have entered into the nazi-soviet pact in the first place, also it may effect the outcome of the spanish civil war a little and improve the republics ability to resist franco (ie with less nkvd brutality and wateful set piece offensives) maybe allowing them to just abut last it out till WW2 thus massively changing the dynamics of the war.
 
The evil Genie of Nazism is out of the bottle by this time, so to speak, and nothing short of WWII can stop it.

I disagree.

My guess is that stuff will go worse for USSR in WWII, but would it be bad enough to tip the scales? I dunno. What I do know, however, is that USSR manages to win against Nazi, post-war settlement would be less favourite than one Stalin hammered. I'd say best estimate is OTL 1940 border and Finlandized Poland and Romania, but probability of latter part is quite low.

Ehhh.... how can we really say that? The entirety of WWII followed from the events of the late thirties, not least the Spanish Civil War and Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. Neither will be recognizable if the USSR has a leadership crisis in the madness of the prewar years and then different leadership by 1939.

How do we know the Nazis wouldn't try to talk the capitals of Europe into a crusade against Communism, failing, but killing the chances of a pact? How do we know war wouldn't break out with a Japan sensing weakness? How do we know the Soviets would still support Republican Spain, thus altering the domestic politics throughout Western Europe? How do we know the Russians would still cut a deal with Hitler?

To alter the prewar arrangement in the largest European power, then assume that everything that follows to 1945 plays out in the same pattern..... Seems a tad silly.
 

Maur

Banned
Crash industrialization began with collectivization in either 1928 or 1930, so would only continue as everyone supported it. The USSR will not be less industrialized in 1941 if Stalin is killed in 1936.
Exactly. The notion that USSR will be less prepared is weird. It's not like every engineer and factory plan is going on hiatus, because "let's wait until they sort out political leadership".
 
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