Sports WI: No USFL?

[Dunning Kruger]

Just want to point out that Steve Young was, prior to 1990, Michael Vick. Exceptionally athletic, a strong arm, and a great runner but horribly inaccurate. It took several seasons in SF before he developed the accuracy he became known for. If he doesnt go to SF, its not a sure thing he develops into the hall of famer he becomes.

As to Doug Williams, I would assume he holds out and is eventually traded. The Bucs would probably get a #1 for him - maybe the Raiders who needed a replacement for Plunket given Marc Wilson was clearly not a long-term solution. The Rams are another potential home for him.

Finally, you had the Packers taking Tim Lewis at #9. If they move up from 11 to 9 they probably take Bruce Matthews. It might be hindsight bias but I think I recall the Pack liking Matthews and god knows their offensive line was as porous as their secondary.

As an aside, Tim Lewis would have probably had 4 or 5 borderline Pro Bowl season had he not had the neck injury. He was solid to good and might have ended up being very good.

 

[Sigma7]

Just want to point out that Steve Young was, prior to 1990, Michael Vick. Exceptionally athletic, a strong arm, and a great runner but horribly inaccurate. It took several seasons in SF before he developed the accuracy he became known for. If he doesnt go to SF, its not a sure thing he develops into the hall of famer he becomes.

As to Doug Williams, I would assume he holds out and is eventually traded. The Bucs would probably get a #1 for him - maybe the Raiders who needed a replacement for Plunket given Marc Wilson was clearly not a long-term solution. The Rams are another potential home for him.

Finally, you had the Packers taking Tim Lewis at #9. If they move up from 11 to 9 they probably take Bruce Matthews. It might be hindsight bias but I think I recall the Pack liking Matthews and god knows their offensive line was as porous as their secondary.

As an aside, Tim Lewis would have probably had 4 or 5 borderline Pro Bowl season had he not had the neck injury. He was solid to good and might have ended up being very good.

Remember who his head coach with the Bengals would be from Day 1: Sam Wyche, who was a quaterback coach with Bill Walsh's 49ers. He worked with Montana in his formative years ('79-'82) and Joe turned out pretty damn good. Young may take a little longer, but I think Wyche, with his coaching background having been as a passing coach (and a former QB himself), and no Montana in front of him?

I don't think Young is even the starter in Cinci in '84, perhaps not immediately in '85, but I think he's the starter by the midway point in '85 at the latest.

Will he be HOF right then and there? No, but he'll probably be better sooner if he's drafted by Cinci in 1984.

 

[Dunning Kruger]

Remember who his head coach with the Bengals would be from Day 1: Sam Wyche, who was a quaterback coach with Bill Walsh's 49ers. He worked with Montana in his formative years ('79-'82) and Joe turned out pretty damn good. Young may take a little longer, but I think Wyche, with his coaching background having been as a passing coach (and a former QB himself), and no Montana in front of him?

I don't think Young is even the starter in Cinci in '84, perhaps not immediately in '85, but I think he's the starter by the midway point in '85 at the latest.

Will he be HOF right then and there? No, but he'll probably be better sooner if he's drafted by Cinci in 1984.

Good point about Wyche, I forgot about that. Of course that assumes Bart Starr is fired by Green Bay and Forrest Gregg leaves Cincinnati to coach the Pack. We havent seen the 83 season yet. Oh the butterflies of sports TLs...

 

[Sigma7]

Good point about Wyche, I forgot about that. Of course that assumes Bart Starr is fired by Green Bay and Forrest Gregg leaves Cincinnati to coach the Pack. We havent seen the 83 season yet. Oh the butterflies of sports TLs...

If all things remain the same as OTL re: The Pack, I think that's a near certainty. The Packers, during Starr's tenure as head coach, ranged from bad to blah; never all that impressive even when they weren't bad. I think Starr being replaced by Gregg happens same as OTL.

Besides, if expansion is part of the '82 CBA, he's first in line to coach the Phoenix Firebirds...

 

[AltSptHst]

If Houston doesn't sign Moon, when does #1 arrive in Seattle and (I'm going to go out on a fairly stout limb here and say TOTALLY changes the potency of the 'Hawks offense, as he was, for one thing, a way better passer and, for another, nowhere near as prone to coughing it up as Krieg was) what does that mean for Seattle in the second half of the 1980's?

He probably arrives in 1984, the same year that he arrived in Houston.

If Warner somehow stays healthy that year (or doesn't get hurt as bad), they may end up in the Super Bowl against SF that year, and they play better than Miami did.

I also wonder about Krieg. Maybe he gets traded to the Rams the next year, and they have him instead of Dieter Brock.

Without the USFL, Steve Young is going into the 1984 NFL Draft.

Could the BYU QB end up taking a short trip east to The Mile High City? Young had a sick senior season and led BYU to 11-1, the WAC championship and a 21-17 win over Missou in the Holiday Bowl and a final ranking of #7. (One wonders where BYU would have finished in the rankings if they'd managed to beat Baylor in the season opener, a shootout they lost by a mere four points...)

How would Denver have fared in 1983 with DeBerg under center for (one would think) the entire season? Would DeBerg have solidified that spot in a full 1982 season? How would that change Denver's 1983 draft day?

I think that Reeves liked DeBerg. He also liked Mark Herrmann (on an 1981 Monday Night telecast, Howard Cosell said that Reeves thought that Herrmann would be the QB of the future). So, I don't see them doing the Steve Tebow, I mean Young deal (It is so easy to get them confused, at least, Tebow and pre-SF Steve Young. That is why I think that a Bill Walsh could have turned around Tebow's career as well if he worked with him).

With Elway going to H-Town, Reeves still settles on Chris Hinton because they liked him a lot. However, I wonder if they still draft G Mark Cooper in Round 2. They may have only drafted him because they were still trying to get Elway, and they knew that they were going to trade Hinton (In the 30 for 30 doc, Elway's agent, Marvin Demoff, said that Denver called him during the first round and said that they were still trying to get him, and that he should trust them).

In lieu of Cooper, I think that Denver takes Henry Ellard in Round 2 (they did take a WR in Round 3 that year named Clint Sampson, so that was a position that they were targeting). Then, in Round 3, the Broncos draft Albert Lewis (they did draft some corners that year in later rounds).

In 83, that team probably finishes 8-8, one game out of the playoffs (Elway didn't have much of a rookie year, anyway).

Then, in 84, they have the 14th pick, and they are the ones who trade down with the Fins instead of Buffalo (and Miami grabbed LB Jackie Shipp). With the 28th pick, Denver decides to take RB Greg Bell of Notre Dame.

With an O-line that has Hinton, Bishop, Bill Bryan, Studdard, and Ken Lanier, a WR core that has Henry Ellard, Steve Watson (and eventually Vance Johnson, and maybe even Mark Jackson), and a secondary that has Albert Lewis, Louis Wright, and Dennis Smith, the Broncos still are a contender for the playoffs during the 80's, but without Elway, I don't think they make three SB's.

 

[Sigma7]

He probably arrives in 1984, the same year that he arrived in Houston.

If Warner somehow stays healthy that year (or doesn't get hurt as bad), they may end up in the Super Bowl against SF that year, and they play better than Miami did.

Potentially a scary good team- as they were OTL, the 'Hawks D was ranked 5th overall (and without as many turnovers- Krieg threw 24 picks to go with those 32 TDs, plus 11 fumbles, they're probably better, as they're not defending short fields or heading back out on the field after 1 or two plays) with a SICK front three to their 3-4:

RDE Jeff Bryant, 14.5 sacks, 1 INT 2 fumbles recovered
NT Joe Nash*, 7 sacks, 1 INT, 3 fumbles recovered, 1st Team All Pro
LDE Jacob Green, 13 sacks, 4 fumbles recovered

With Super Sub Mike Fanning (DE-DT-NT), 7 sacks

Backed up by a fairly nasty linebacker corps:

ROLB Greg Gaines, 3.5 sacks, 1 INT
RILB Keith Butler, 1 sack
LILB Shelton Robinson, .5 sacks, 4 fumbles recovered
LOLB Bruce Scholtz, 1 INT, 1 fumble recovered

With rookie Fred Young contributing a pro bowl season

And then, there was the backfield...

RCB Dave Brown*, 8 INTs, 179 yards, 2 TDs, 1 fumble recovered
LCB Keith Simpson, 4 INTs, 138 yards, 2 TDs, 2 fumbles recovered
SS Kenny Easley, 10 INTs, 126 yards, 2 TDs, 1 fumble recovered, First Team All Pro
FS John Harris*, 6 INTs, 79 yards, 1 fumble recovered

*Pro Bowler

Pair that with an offense that has Moon under center, Largent as the primary target, Super Rookie WR Daryl Turner (35 catches, 715 yards and 10 TDs) and a healthy Curt Warner (coming off a 1,449 rushing yards, 13 rushing TD, 42 catch, 325 receiving yard, 1 receiving TD rookie year) out of the backfield?

Scary good team.

I also wonder about Krieg. Maybe he gets traded to the Rams the next year, and they have him instead of Dieter Brock.

That could be interesting...and frustrating as hell for Ram fans. All time leader in fumbles.

I think that Reeves liked DeBerg. He also liked Mark Herrmann (on an 1981 Monday Night telecast, Howard Cosell said that Reeves thought that Herrmann would be the QB of the future). So, I don't see them doing the Steve Tebow, I mean Young deal (It is so easy to get them confused, at least, Tebow and pre-SF Steve Young. That is why I think that a Bill Walsh could have turned around Tebow's career as well if he worked with him).

With Elway going to H-Town, Reeves still settles on Chris Hinton because they liked him a lot. However, I wonder if they still draft G Mark Cooper in Round 2. They may have only drafted him because they were still trying to get Elway, and they knew that they were going to trade Hinton (In the 30 for 30 doc, Elway's agent, Marvin Demoff, said that Denver called him during the first round and said that they were still trying to get him, and that he should trust them).

In lieu of Cooper, I think that Denver takes Henry Ellard in Round 2 (they did take a WR in Round 3 that year named Clint Sampson, so that was a position that they were targeting). Then, in Round 3, the Broncos draft Albert Lewis (they did draft some corners that year in later rounds).

In 83, that team probably finishes 8-8, one game out of the playoffs (Elway didn't have much of a rookie year, anyway).

Then, in 84, they have the 14th pick, and they are the ones who trade down with the Fins instead of Buffalo (and Miami grabbed LB Jackie Shipp). With the 28th pick, Denver decides to take RB Greg Bell of Notre Dame.

With an O-line that has Hinton, Bishop, Bill Bryan, Studdard, and Ken Lanier, a WR core that has Henry Ellard, Steve Watson (and eventually Vance Johnson, and maybe even Mark Jackson), and a secondary that has Albert Lewis, Louis Wright, and Dennis Smith, the Broncos still are a contender for the playoffs during the 80's, but without Elway, I don't think they make three SB's.

I think DeBerg could get them to at least one.

DeBerg was stuck in Tampa for most of his prime. Insult to injury, he was on two teams that were just about to get good. Unfortunately for Steve, the those two teams were the just about to promote Joe Montana 'Niners and then the 'We got Elway!' Broncos. (Some guys have all the luck, huh.)

If he'd played with a contender during those days he spent in Tampa, his career numbers would have been way better, and he'd have probably seen plenty of post-season action.

I sometimes wonder how Seattle or the Rams would have fared with him under center from '83 to '90. DeBerg with the Bears (if McMahon picked baseball over football, like he said in a recent interview he wishes he did now) starting in '84 could have been interesting too.

I wonder if the Bears would have repeated in '86 with DeBerg at QB. Hell, I wonder what the Bears would have been like from '84 to '91 with DeBerg at QB.

A healthy, reliable QB with those Bears teams?

Good Lord, they get a solid #2 option to pair with Willie Gault and DeBerg's arm, with the option to hand off to Sweetness?

With THAT defense?

 

[Dunning Kruger]

I think DeBerg could get them to at least one.

DeBerg was stuck in Tampa for most of his prime. Insult to injury, he was on two teams that were just about to get good. Unfortunately for Steve, the those two teams were the just about to promote Joe Montana 'Niners and then the 'We got Elway!' Broncos. (Some guys have all the luck, huh.)

If he'd played with a contender during those days he spent in Tampa, his career numbers would have been way better, and he'd have probably seen plenty of post-season action.

I sometimes wonder how Seattle or the Rams would have fared with him under center from '83 to '90. DeBerg with the Bears (if McMahon picked baseball over football, like he said in a recent interview he wishes he did now) starting in '84 could have been interesting too.

I wonder if the Bears would have repeated in '86 with DeBerg at QB. Hell, I wonder what the Bears would have been like from '84 to '91 with DeBerg at QB.

A healthy, reliable QB with those Bears teams?

Good Lord, they get a solid #2 option to pair with Willie Gault and DeBerg's arm, with the option to hand off to Sweetness?

With THAT defense?

Bill Walsh described Steve DeBerg as just good enough to lose. I think of him as an ancient version of Kyle Orton. So, I'm not sure DeBerg would be the one to make the Bears that much better. But then again, he has to be better than Tomczak so maybe you are right the Bears being better.

 

[AltSptHst]

Bill Walsh described Steve DeBerg as just good enough to lose. I think of him as an ancient version of Kyle Orton. So, I'm not sure DeBerg would be the one to make the Bears that much better. But then again, he has to be better than Tomczak so maybe you are right the Bears being better.

Sigma made this point before. When Steve was with SF, the Niners had a junk defense, and he had to make things happen. However, by 1981, when Montana became the full-time starter, the Niners didn't have a dumpster fire secondary anymore, and they added Fred Dean and Hacksaw to add more stability on D.

Also, Steve really didn't fit the WCO too well. You have to be more mobile. Joe fit it to a T.

 

[Sigma7]

Sigma made this point before. When Steve was with SF, the Niners had a junk defense, and he had to make things happen. However, by 1981, when Montana became the full-time starter, the Niners didn't have a dumpster fire secondary anymore, and they added Fred Dean and Hacksaw to add more stability on D.

Also, Steve really didn't fit the WCO too well. You have to be more mobile. Joe fit it to a T.

Yeah. I always felt it was kinda raw of Walsh to say that about DeBerg.

The 'Niners were a mess when he was their QB.

When the whole team ain't exactly blowing up the league, you REALLY shouldn't lay the blame on ONE guy.

DeBerg didn't have the mobility for the WCO, this is true, but how would he fare in other, more conventional schemes, with better teams around him?

THAT, is why I always wonder about DeBerg, because when he finally DID get to play for a club that wasn't total crap, he did pretty good...problem was, he had both age and miles on him by the time he got to KC.

DeBerg, without all those years being chased around the Tampa backfield (and, often times, getting sacked all the way to China), in his prime, with a competitive team, I feel, could have been one of the greats.

 

[Zheng He]

Yeah. I always felt it was kinda raw of Walsh to say that about DeBerg.

The 'Niners were a mess when he was their QB.

When the whole team ain't exactly blowing up the league, you REALLY shouldn't lay the blame on ONE guy.

DeBerg didn't have the mobility for the WCO, this is true, but how would he fare in other, more conventional schemes, with better teams around him?

THAT, is why I always wonder about DeBerg, because when he finally DID get to play for a club that wasn't total crap, he did pretty good...problem was, he had both age and miles on him by the time he got to KC.

DeBerg, without all those years being chased around the Tampa backfield (and, often times, getting sacked all the way to China), in his prime, with a competitive team, I feel, could have been one of the greats.

DeBerg has the unenviable track record of having been replaced by Montana in SF, Elway in Denver, and Montana again in KC. The guy was a solid QB, just not a star. Kind of like Alex Smith today. Surround him with talent and don't ask him to do too much and he'll win games for you, maybe even get you to the playoffs. He's just not someone you build a franchise around but neither are the vast majority of QBs in the NFL.