Spartacus wins (at least 1 more time)

Last week, BBC put on the last of the current series of time commanders.

It was Spartacus' last battle.

The players did rather well, actually winning the battle (but loosing to much to survive the next two battles)

Now, suppose Spartacus does like the contestants, only better.

ISO putting his best (the gladiators and Gauls) on the right, where they'd face the weakest part of the legion opposing him, he puts them on the left, directly opposite of the best Romans.

In their best fight ever, the gladiators smash the Roman elite and mop up the rest.

Spartacus has enough left to face the second army coming his way (there were three).

Could Spartacus have beaten the final two armies?

WI he did?

Did Rome have anything left to fight him with?
Would even more slaves have flocked to him?
Is there any way to get an empire WITHOUT slaves?
 

Straha

Banned
a roman empire minus slavery would develop like china and stay a stagnant autocratic nation instead of falling
 
Fiji said:
ISO putting his best (the gladiators and Gauls) on the right, where they'd face the weakest part of the legion opposing him, he puts them on the left, directly opposite of the best Romans.

In their best fight ever, the gladiators smash the Roman elite and mop up the rest.

Spartacus has enough left to face the second army coming his way (there were three).

Could Spartacus have beaten the final two armies?

WI he did?

Did Rome have anything left to fight him with?
Would even more slaves have flocked to him?
Is there any way to get an empire WITHOUT slaves?

Yes, Rome had plenty of fight left in it. Spartacus had up to then faced mostly second-rate troops. Muchas his tactical genius impresses me, he had hardly seen the last of Rome. Pompey had barely started the fight, and in spite of what Caesarian propaganda likes to make of him, Pompey was good. Neither was there any chance of a compromise while his army remains in Italy, and so close to the Social Wars, precious little chance of allies (though I would not exclude the possibility that the Romans would let him go and say good riddance if he chose to take his troops out of the Empire, say into the Gallia Comata, and do a Samo). If Spartacus beats the attacking armies, he will next face Pompey's legions, and then those recalled from Spain, and more from the East... without support, he is effectively dead, and I can see no power willing to support him (it's part of the Spartacus tragedy that he rose too late. If something like this had happened during the Mithridatic Wars, the Social Wars, or the Sullan coup, it might have done lasting damage to Rome).

More slaves would probably have joined him, if only because his troops were on the move again and not doing so meant being plundered and raped and the left behind, rather than getting to do some plundering and raping and then leaving. However, I don't think manpower was ever his problem. He needs to get hardware, a regular supply system and winter quarters, and Rome had ways of denying him that ad infinitum.

Yes, at this stage you could have had an empire without slaves, but there is no way this would happen either way. The heyday of chattel slavery is just drawing to a close and while hundreds of thousands of slaves are, well, slaving away on the latifundia of Italy, the economic model of a tenant farm or a laborer-based business exists and would have worked. Large-scale slavery was a matter more of opportunity (they could) and social convention (they understood how) than necessity (there were plenty of other sources of dirt cheap, dependent labor if they had been needed, and the Hellenistic world demonstrated amply how it could be done)
However, Spartacus diod not actually oppose slavery on fundamental grounds. he believed that he did not want to be a slave and neither did his followers, and by the lights of the time nobody who could fight for himself should be a slave. AFAIR it was only the Cynics and some Stoics who opposed slavery on philosophical grounds, and they were not very effective revolutionaries. So a victorious Spartacus (in the sense that he manages to elude capture and demonstrate the Romans can be beaten) means a serious blow to Rome's prestige and economy, but no abolition. History would no doubt butterfly widely, though (we are approaching some of the most crucial times in European history).
 
Spartacus would've done better to escape across the Alps, as was his original plan, than to allow his two right-hand men to convince him to stay in Italy. Apparently, Crixus and Oenomaus were intoxicated on their own success and thought they could rob and pillage Italy forever. This is where I think the crux of the ATL should begin.

Spartacus leads his army of slaves across the Alps. The Germans return to their native land, the Gauls to theirs, while Spartacus returns to Thrace. He goes on to get married and have lots of little Spartakids. The End.
 
Perhaps Spartacus and his men defeat those Roman armies, but are weakened so much that they realize that they can't win. They then run (and I mean RUN) for the Alps and get away, taking all the captured Eagles with them.

Rome has just lost tens of thousands of slaves and has been defeated twelve(right?) consecutive times by said slaves. If they manage to evade capture and escape Rome after humiliating its armies so many times, there's going to be hell to pay for the government at the time. Might this bring on some more civil strife? Perhaps someone figures out that having so many slaves around is dangerous for Rome's security.

By the way, who's Samo?
 
Matt Quinn said:
By the way, who's Samo?

Allegedly a Frankish merchant who went to live among the Slavic tribes of modern Czechia and managed to turn them into a kingdom along roughly Merovingian lines.

Mind you, some modern historians doubt the whole story...
 
here's a twist on this POD. I remember reading that Spartacus had negotiated with some naval power to have his people taken away from Rome, but the sailors took his money and then didn't show. Suppose they did show, and the rebels got away. Would Rome work to the bitter end to chase them down, or just let them go as a good riddance?
 
He negotiated with a pirate fleet to transport a force to Sicily but was double crossed by the pirates. Ignore the Kubrick crap, Spartacus's revolt was the last great servile war, not some new phenomenon. In the past, Sicily had been the place for slave revolts. Had he got to Sicily, there would certainly have been a massive uprising in his support. The Romans couldn't have ignored this, considering the strategic and economic significance of Sicily. They would have won in the end but God knows how many years this might have taken. The effect on how the Roman Republic developed? Less Roman expansion elsewhere? The problem of a victorious general with a large army on Rome's doorstep?
 
Prunesquallor said:
He negotiated with a pirate fleet to transport a force to Sicily but was double crossed by the pirates. Ignore the Kubrick crap, Spartacus's revolt was the last great servile war, not some new phenomenon. In the past, Sicily had been the place for slave revolts. Had he got to Sicily, there would certainly have been a massive uprising in his support. The Romans couldn't have ignored this, considering the strategic and economic significance of Sicily. They would have won in the end but God knows how many years this might have taken. The effect on how the Roman Republic developed? Less Roman expansion elsewhere? The problem of a victorious general with a large army on Rome's doorstep?

What if Rome didn't win? If the pirates did show, then that meas a chance for a future partnership and even an alliance. An uprising in Sicily supported by Spartacus's forces means they would take it. Slaves represent a broad base of trades, meaning the the skilled manpower neccessary to resume industry and set up a functioning government is there. With some time and breathing room to drill and train troops and Spartacus able to reorganize his forces, the (let's call it) Republican Sicilian army is going to give the Romans a run for their money. Combined with a mercenary navy made up of pirates, Rome might be forced to back off. Could Sicily eventually carve out terrirotry in Northern Africa and compete with Rome for the rest of her imperial history, eventually outliving her?
 
I don't think this is plausible. Never underestimate the absolute determination the Romans could put into a project if they thought themselves defied. I forget what town (Numantia?) it was that told the Romans they had supplies for nine years, so piss off. The Romans replied that in that case they would take the place on the tenth year- which they did. The problem with Spartacus's army was that it was (unlike the Roman) a heterogenous force. As Mommsen pointed out (HISTORY OF ROME, vol 4), the earlier Sicilian slave revolts had a unifying factor in what he calls " a quasi national point of union in the common Syrohellenism, the Italian slaves were separated into the two bodies of Helleno-Barbarians and Celto-Germans." Spartacus did not have full control of his forces. His army would have fallen apart through national rivalries as it did IOTL. Nor were the pirates a significant military factor. They were important only because they were operating in a power void, Rome having crushed the Greek cities which had policed the trade routes and making no systematic attempt to extirpate them. When Pompey did make such an attempt, it only took about seven weeks campaigning to smash them.

No, the real divergence would have been in Roman politics. I suspect no expansion into Gaul, less involvement in the East, a new Sulla using his army to march on Rome, totally different career for Caesar, no consulship for Cicero, perhaps an intervention by Lucullus using the army he was leading against Mithridates, anything is possible.
 
Prunesquallor said:
I don't think this is plausible. Never underestimate the absolute determination the Romans could put into a project if they thought themselves defied. I forget what town (Numantia?) it was that told the Romans they had supplies for nine years, so piss off. The Romans replied that in that case they would take the place on the tenth year- which they did. The problem with Spartacus's army was that it was (unlike the Roman) a heterogenous force. As Mommsen pointed out (HISTORY OF ROME, vol 4), the earlier Sicilian slave revolts had a unifying factor in what he calls " a quasi national point of union in the common Syrohellenism, the Italian slaves were separated into the two bodies of Helleno-Barbarians and Celto-Germans." Spartacus did not have full control of his forces. His army would have fallen apart through national rivalries as it did IOTL. Nor were the pirates a significant military factor. They were important only because they were operating in a power void, Rome having crushed the Greek cities which had policed the trade routes and making no systematic attempt to extirpate them. When Pompey did make such an attempt, it only took about seven weeks campaigning to smash them.

No, the real divergence would have been in Roman politics. I suspect no expansion into Gaul, less involvement in the East, a new Sulla using his army to march on Rome, totally different career for Caesar, no consulship for Cicero, perhaps an intervention by Lucullus using the army he was leading against Mithridates, anything is possible.

All, good points, but I have a knack for closing the gap on implausible. From what I understand, Spartacus's army was trapped by the time they were defeated , so only taking seven weeks is no surprise.

The key to cementing a heterogenous force is unfiying your command. You're correct in saying that Spartacus didn't have absolute command, but he did have respect and earned the trust of men beneath him. The key to unfiying your command is time. Time to negotiate, time to develop a trust, time to develop a repore. Given that it is going to take some time for the Romans to mount a naval campaign, then he has a good chunk of time at hand. It is time he didn't have while on the run. If he is able to win over the commanders from various factions and get them to trust each other, then they will coordinate their tactics in battle and his heterogenous force will effectively become homogenous.

Oboviously they can't mount a ship for ship naval battle, not by a mile, but the raiding style of the pirates does play well to interrupting Roman naval formations. Using geurilla tactics to disrupt their lines is the best bet of staving a Roman naval engagement.

Being able to turn a group of craftsmen, peasents, and farmers into an effective and even somewhat disciplined fighting force is a small miracle. In the time it would take the Romans to attack Sicily, I think Spartacus to revamp and to some extent re-train his forces.

Still not bloody likely, but the hurdles could possibly be overcome and a guy like Spartacus is the ideal candidate for the job.
 
Sorry- you misunderstand me. The seven weeks is the time taken by Pompey to defeat the Cilician pirates, the only group which was willing to fight. The rest, realising they didn't have a snowball's chance in hell, sought terms.

No, Spartacus's army was trapped in the Bruttian peninsula by a great wall built by Crassus's army but was able to break out on a winter's night and move into Lucania. It then started to fall to bits. The last stage of Spartacus's campaign was marked by disunion in his army. The Celts and the Germans broke off from the main force. In the end the Celts were caught on their own and massacred. Spartacus's last victory was when he fought a successful rearguard action against a pursuing Roman army. His troops then refused to retreat further and forced Spartacus to give battle- disastrously.
This- along with his army's refusal to follow his plan to leave Italy or their opposition to his plan to blockade Rome, doesn't give a good omen for Spartacus's prolonged career in Sicily.

What would have happened? I suspect a victory helped by slave revolt, the gradual disintegration of the slave army, attempts by national groups to set up their own enclaves inside Sicily, resentment of Castus and Gannicus (the German and Celt leaders) at a Thracian's attempt to give them orders, possibly Spartacus's murder. Remember (to give two widely differing examples) what happened to Sertorius and Arminius.
 
After the battle of Mutina (now called Modena), Spartacus's army should have gone out of Italy and split into its natioonalities which each go home, as Adamanteus said.
 
If Spartacus made it to Sicily, with the help of these pirates, it would bring a new scale to the revolt, as I suspect that he could recruit more slaves there. There had been slave revolts in Sicily before. However, I double Rome is going to let that go. They'd probably send an expedition into Sicily to push it back into submission. The only change to Roman history might be a few changes in the dates of things, as a Sicilian expedition would take some time that may detract from other conquests of the time. Other than that, pretty much the same. The only thing that Spartacus' revolt did in OTL was to provide more means for the manumission of slaves, so that there just weren't so many damned slaves around to revolt next time.
 
Prunesquallor said:
Sorry- you misunderstand me. The seven weeks is the time taken by Pompey to defeat the Cilician pirates, the only group which was willing to fight. The rest, realising they didn't have a snowball's chance in hell, sought terms.

No, Spartacus's army was trapped in the Bruttian peninsula by a great wall built by Crassus's army but was able to break out on a winter's night and move into Lucania. It then started to fall to bits. The last stage of Spartacus's campaign was marked by disunion in his army. The Celts and the Germans broke off from the main force. In the end the Celts were caught on their own and massacred. Spartacus's last victory was when he fought a successful rearguard action against a pursuing Roman army. His troops then refused to retreat further and forced Spartacus to give battle- disastrously.
This- along with his army's refusal to follow his plan to leave Italy or their opposition to his plan to blockade Rome, doesn't give a good omen for Spartacus's prolonged career in Sicily.

What would have happened? I suspect a victory helped by slave revolt, the gradual disintegration of the slave army, attempts by national groups to set up their own enclaves inside Sicily, resentment of Castus and Gannicus (the German and Celt leaders) at a Thracian's attempt to give them orders, possibly Spartacus's murder. Remember (to give two widely differing examples) what happened to Sertorius and Arminius.

The chances for disintegration are high, no doubt, but the key difference is time and proximity. True, they didn't follow orders at those key times before, but he didn't have time to argue or negotiate it either. I think the people who were under him during the Italian campaign would be easier to convince, as he has risked his done much to earn their trust and respect and the notion of merely thinking him a "Thracian" is pretty much gone. His core force is the least likely to disintegrate, but the chance is still there, nonetheless.

The Sicilian slaves are another matter. Some might stay in Sicilia and try and set up enclaves while others leave. The Roman Navy promptly swats at them and they loose half their boats in the process. The unsunk half turn around and come back, reporting what happened. They don't try to leave again. That now means everyone shares the same island. They, of course, exist peaceably while cooperating in civil matters. Spartacus might offer advice and even assistance to smaller groups. They also have an initial reason to trust him, being that he just helped them in their recent uprising.

I can't say exactly how they would be convinced to cooperate, but I imagine "ally or die at the hands of the Romans" would play a part, as well as gradually earning their trust. Spartacus, being a capable military commander, is going to seek out leaders amongst the other groups and gain their trust. If he can do that he has a chance of making a cohesive. All is I can say is that disintegration is not assured. If it was, then I don't think we would be writing about it :D

But hey, it's just an interesting timeline to consider. I would think the POD is that Quintus Sertorius survives asassination and reinvigorates his position among the native tribes and convinces the pirates to carry Spartacus over to Sicily. With Sertorius providing propaganda assistance, and Spartacus gradually gaining their trust, he might be able to forge an alliance stable enough to fight the Romans.
 
Adamanteus said:
If Spartacus made it to Sicily, with the help of these pirates, it would bring a new scale to the revolt, as I suspect that he could recruit more slaves there. There had been slave revolts in Sicily before. However, I double Rome is going to let that go. They'd probably send an expedition into Sicily to push it back into submission. The only change to Roman history might be a few changes in the dates of things, as a Sicilian expedition would take some time that may detract from other conquests of the time. Other than that, pretty much the same. The only thing that Spartacus' revolt did in OTL was to provide more means for the manumission of slaves, so that there just weren't so many damned slaves around to revolt next time.

With Sertorius' survival as a POD, the Romans have to deal with Spain as well, who is allied with the slaves. Sertorius defeated Pompey, so they aren't going to have an easy time of surpressing them. Sicily will be their first target, as they will consider it the weakest link. Pompey assumes that it is a bunch of diseparate slaves stuck on island that will be crushed with relative swiftness. With Sertorius' help, Spartacus unites the salves on Sicily and with the help of pirate raiders, defends against the initial Roman invasion (also partly due to Pompey's assumption of their lack of cohesiveness). Are they able to hold out? Going between Spain and Sicily, the Romans can't focus on either with as much attention as much they would like and simply don't have the numbers to either a sufficient miltiary response. Repeated raidings and defeats of their navy exahust it. They simply can't transport troops from the mainland for at least a year, maybe more.

Sicily and her slave population become better and better with each engagement and, thanks to Spartacus's command, are as disciplinedas anything the Romans turn out. With a fleet of captured Roman ships and former slave seamen, they have an effective navy. I suppose they may even have several Roman legions made up dominantly of foreigners who have defected over to their side. And, being a wide cross-secton of Rome's craftsmen, the slaves posess the technological skills of the Romans. They are building armor and weapons as good as anything Italy. Maybe better.
 
Top