Sparta!

[Commando Howiezter]

Except they didn't. There were plenty of Greek states that went over to Persians, mostly northern ones.



You are ignoring the periokoi who would be much better candidates for this new model army, considering they fought as hoplites anyway. There were attampts to integrate Helots into army later (mostly during peloponnesian war).

Mass emancipation is out of the question since everybody knew that whole economy and system relies on large number of Helots to work while Homoioi fight.

Besides, if Persians capture Sparta then they'll free Helots anyway so why would they fight for their former asters agaisnt people who fred them just then?

Not to mention that if Persians reach sparta they have pretty uch conquered Greece, making those greeks fight for them (or flee, like athenians were planning to do)

For emancipation, if you are wiped off the face of the earth who cares about farms?

I know some did, but the powerful ones didn't.

Periokoi, hmmmm-have to do some research on them.

Weelllll how about this-the traditional leaders are considered mad as they still remain aloof and won't let helots and periokoi fight even as the Persian menace is sweeping across Greece.( but not yet at Sparta ).

Persians will free the helots? Ok.... How about a Persian massacre / razing of a town? The stress of the additional fighting might be too much, or in response to Spartan attacks? Kinda hard to believe foreigners when they had just destroyed a whole town of your kin while simultaneously promising to free you.

 

[aktarian]

For emancipation, if you are wiped off the face of the earth who cares about farms?

I know some did, but the powerful ones didn't.

Don't forget Spartan arrogance, thinking they'll win anyway. So there is no incentive for them to have ass emacipation

Periokoi, hmmmm-have to do some research on them.

Weelllll how about this-the traditional leaders are considered mad as they still remain aloof and won't let helots and periokoi fight even as the Persian menace is sweeping across Greece.( but not yet at Sparta ).

Perioikoi did fight. As hoplites. Pretty much all the time. Homoioi were in first lines but perioikoi were behind them which means that there is a large pool of people who can act as hoplites and who, as added bonus, don't actually hate homoioi guts and can be expected not to burn the polis down, given the option.

there is no way helots can be drafted in large numbers and trained to something approaching decent standards in time frame you are talking about. Perioikoi can so they will be first choice.

Persians will free the helots? Ok.... How about a Persian massacre / razing of a town? The stress of the additional fighting might be too much, or in response to Spartan attacks?

that's possible

Kinda hard to believe foreigners when they had just destroyed a whole town of your kin while simultaneously promising to free you.

Why? These foreigners just wiped out the class and toppled the system that held you and your people in brutal slavery for generations, your kin or not.

 

[Commando Howiezter]

Don't forget Spartan arrogance, thinking they'll win anyway. So there is no incentive for them to have ass emacipation



Perioikoi did fight. As hoplites. Pretty much all the time. Homoioi were in first lines but perioikoi were behind them which means that there is a large pool of people who can act as hoplites and who, as added bonus, don't actually hate homoioi guts and can be expected not to burn the polis down, given the option.

there is no way helots can be drafted in large numbers and trained to something approaching decent standards in time frame you are talking about. Perioikoi can so they will be first choice.



that's possible



Why? These foreigners just wiped out the class and toppled the system that held you and your people in brutal slavery for generations, your kin or not.

1. I mean when they are getting pounded by the Persians and are getting desperate.

2. Ok. So how about from helot to periokoi for good service and loyalty? It won't be as big a jump form helot to Spartan, and will be more acceptable to Spartans. Also helots can help run other, less honourable jobs.

3. Yeah they will definitely help the Spartans.

4. Grrrrrr this always stumps me, have to get a response later...


P.s. And I assume you mean "mass" emancipation?

 

[Commando Howiezter]

The reply!

Ok how about the massacre / razing of town idea that I mentioned earlier? Make the helots fear the Persians more than the Spartans. Would this work?

 

[aktarian]

1. I mean when they are getting pounded by the Persians and are getting desperate.

The thing about ancient greece is that states didn't "get pounded" ost wars were resolved fairly quickly. Things started to change during Peloponnesian war but that's later

And OTL when things were getting desperate when ruling class was shrining they stuck to their principles rather than relax them them

2. Ok. So how about from helot to periokoi for good service and loyalty? It won't be as big a jump form helot to Spartan, and will be more acceptable to Spartans. Also helots can help run other, less honourable jobs.

That did happen, on smaller scale. But the problem for your scenario is that training somebody to be a hoplite takes a very long time.

3. Yeah they will definitely help the Spartans.

4. Grrrrrr this always stumps me, have to get a response later...


P.s. And I assume you mean "mass" emancipation?

I mean Persians would free helots, earning their gratitude.

 

[Jonathan Edelstein]

Yboxman began an interesting Spartan timeline a few years back, but he started much earlier, with the POD during Sparta's formative years in the eighth century BC.

 

[Commando Howiezter]

The thing about ancient greece is that states didn't "get pounded" ost wars were resolved fairly quickly. Things started to change during Peloponnesian war but that's later

And OTL when things were getting desperate when ruling class was shrining they stuck to their principles rather than relax them them



That did happen, on smaller scale. But the problem for your scenario is that training somebody to be a hoplite takes a very long time.



I mean Persians would free helots, earning their gratitude.

This alternate Persian war will mean the Greeks are getting it hard and the war will last longer than what the Greeks are accustomed to.

Shrining? I assume you mean shrinking? Ya but if the ruling class won't change then somebody has to see that Sparta will get destroyed and maybe overthrow them/do something?

I know it takes a long time but what if they just picked the most experienced periokoi and have the helot do less hounarble jobs?

But say the Persians razed and destroyed a helot town-would the helots still trust the Persians after that?

 

[Commando Howiezter]

Yboxman began an interesting Spartan timeline a few years back, but he started much earlier, with the POD during Sparta's formative years in the eighth century BC.

Thanks for the link!

I will be reading it for ideas.

 

[aktarian]

This alternate Persian war will mean the Greeks are getting it hard and the war will last longer than what the Greeks are accustomed to.

That also eans Athens are defeated, leaving only Sparta as major player in anti-Persian camp. Which would cause plent of other states to switch sides, elaving Saprta isolated and defeated in due time.

Shrining? I assume you mean shrinking? Ya but if the ruling class won't change then somebody has to see that Sparta will get destroyed and maybe overthrow them/do something?

They didn't OTL when this was a long process and they had time and opportunity to reverse it. why would they suddenly decide to change when they were conservative to the bone?

I know it takes a long time but what if they just picked the most experienced periokoi and have the helot do less hounarble jobs?

Then they don't need a lot of helots. They have perioikoi to serve as hoplites or general infantry reserve pool. No need to change how things are done by drafting helots.

But say the Persians razed and destroyed a helot town-would the helots still trust the Persians after that?

Why would they? Surely they knew situation, seeing how they had Sparten defector in their camp. Makes much more sense for Persians to free helots and get them on their side then indiscriminatly kill everybody and destroy everything.

 

[Commando Howiezter]

That also eans Athens are defeated, leaving only Sparta as major player in anti-Persian camp. Which would cause plent of other states to switch sides, elaving Saprta isolated and defeated in due time.



They didn't OTL when this was a long process and they had time and opportunity to reverse it. why would they suddenly decide to change when they were conservative to the bone?



Then they don't need a lot of helots. They have perioikoi to serve as hoplites or general infantry reserve pool. No need to change how things are done by drafting helots.



Why would they? Surely they knew situation, seeing how they had Sparten defector in their camp. Makes much more sense for Persians to free helots and get them on their side then indiscriminatly kill everybody and destroy everything.

First a question-how do you seperate a quote like that ?:


1. Athens doesn't necessarily have to be defeated for the Greeks to be getting it hard, right?

2. War-it changes a lot of things and often force you to make tough decisions fast.

3. But the periokoi will suffer casualties as well, and extra men are always welcome at a war where the enemy outnumbers you 50 to 1.

4. Like I said a few posts back-razing / massacring of a helot town caused by stress of additional fighting, looting as well as food seziures will be unpopular too. And if the Spartans start to change their ways....

 

[aktarian]

First a question-how do you seperate a quote like that ?:
(/QUOTE)

Replace () with [] in bottom line

1. Athens doesn't necessarily have to be defeated for the Greeks to be getting it hard, right?

They need to be if PErsians are to get to Sparta. Simple geography, Persians can't bypass athens nor can they leave one of principal anti-Persian states undefeated. Once that happens a lot of Greeks will change sides leaving Sparta increasingly isolated. That is assuming their ary isn't wiped out in Plataea-like battle which they lose

2. War-it changes a lot of things and often force you to make tough decisions fast.

Well, OTL they didn't, depsite seeing hwo things are turning. And if they do it takes time for changes to take effect.

3. But the periokoi will suffer casualties as well, and extra men are always welcome at a war where the enemy outnumbers you 50 to 1.

Well, Persian army was around 250.000 (300k tops) large and that's overall, including support. And again, you can't turn person into trained hoplite overnight. That is if Spartans will look past their conservativis and treatment of Helots.

4. Like I said a few posts back-razing / massacring of a helot town caused by stress of additional fighting, looting as well as food seziures will be unpopular too. And if the Spartans start to change their ways....

Again, why would Persians do that? It akes much more sense for them to treat Helots right, give them freedom and set them agaisnt whatever reains of Sparta then massacre everybody. Persians weren't butcher-happy army that butchered for shit & giggles.

 

[Commando Howiezter]

First a question-how do you seperate a quote like that ?:
(/QUOTE)

Replace () with [] in bottom line



They need to be if PErsians are to get to Sparta. Simple geography, Persians can't bypass athens nor can they leave one of principal anti-Persian states undefeated. Once that happens a lot of Greeks will change sides leaving Sparta increasingly isolated. That is assuming their ary isn't wiped out in Plataea-like battle which they lose



Well, OTL they didn't, depsite seeing hwo things are turning. And if they do it takes time for changes to take effect.



Well, Persian army was around 250.000 (300k tops) large and that's overall, including support. And again, you can't turn person into trained hoplite overnight. That is if Spartans will look past their conservativis and treatment of Helots.



Again, why would Persians do that? It akes much more sense for them to treat Helots right, give them freedom and set them agaisnt whatever reains of Sparta then massacre everybody. Persians weren't butcher-happy army that butchered for shit & giggles.

Well the Persians don't have to make it to Sparta for the Greeks to be losing right? Say Athens lost ground but are still in the fight. After all, looking at a map Athens was almost marched completely over by Persia, sooooo....

Well they were winning the Persian wars in OTL.

And like I said ( sorry if I am being rude here ) periokoi did fight as hoplites so they didn't need to be trained ( actually you said that ) helots can act as reserves and be in other aspects of the army-communications, logistics, etc, etc...

The stress of battle can be too much for the conscripts of the Persian army-after all I didn't think the crusaders were planning on killing, looting, and massacring innocent civilians in Jerusalem right?...

Thank you for the comments and thought! You're pretty much the only person still sticking with me so thank you!!



Edit: once this idea is fleshed out do you think this will make a good TL? And that I will be skilled enough to write it?

Anybody?

 

[Commando Howiezter]

Anybody?