Southern Song China Survives

[RealityX]

Out of all of Chinese history what period do you think is high point, and why?

Tang dynasty, Song dynasty, Ming dynasty, or Modern China in 2009.

If the Southern Song had survived, and maintained peaceful relations with the mongol empire (that for some reason decided not to bother the song), what developments would we see over the next 100 years... The Song Chinese are considered to be the first modern cosmopolitan civilization, an indication being their paper money, their use of coal, and gunpowder.... What if they had been given time to take this a little further, would we have a very early steam engine? Attack rockets to dissuade the Mongols from attacking? A powerful Navy?

 

[Nikephoros]

Out of all of Chinese history what period do you think is high point, and why?

Tang dynasty, Song dynasty, Ming dynasty, or Modern China in 2009.

If the Southern Song had survived, and maintained peaceful relations with the mongol empire (that for some reason decided not to bother the song), what developments would we see over the next 100 years... The Song Chinese are considered to be the first modern cosmopolitan civilization, an indication being their paper money, their use of coal, and gunpowder.... What if they had been given time to take this a little further, would we have a very early steam engine? Attack rockets to dissuade the Mongols from attacking? A powerful Navy?

Until about the early 1600s China was on par with Europe. The real reason that their technology stagnated was because of the Qing Dynasty. Due to the nature of Manchu rule, the Manchus had it in their own interests to slow the growth of Chinese technology.

As for your ideas of what technologies would arise:

Steam engine: Possible, although I believe that China's structure made such an idea worthless.
Attack Rockets: They already existed in some measure, but it is doubtful that they would be enough to dissuade the Mongols. But, if China is not attacked by the Mongols within a few years, any Mongol attack would be worthless anyways.
Powerful Navy: This one is kind of doubtful. The technology is there, but until the Qing dynasty, Navies always took a backburner. Simply put, China has always been a land power.

 

[tallwingedgoat]

Powerful Navy: This one is kind of doubtful. The technology is there, but until the Qing dynasty, Navies always took a backburner. Simply put, China has always been a land power.

Southern Song did have a powerful navy. It was the navy that kept the Mongols in check for decades after the conquest of north China. Where do you think Kublai Khan got his fleet for the invasion of Japan and Indonesia?

The Chinese had been a sea faring people for thousands of years. Chinese ships were operating in the Persian Gulf since the Tang dynasty. The height of maritime power was during the Ming. By the time of the Qing dynasty China had become more land bound than prior periods.

 

[carlton_bach]

If the Southern Song had survived, and maintained peaceful relations with the mongol empire (that for some reason decided not to bother the song), what developments would we see over the next 100 years... The Song Chinese are considered to be the first modern cosmopolitan civilization, an indication being their paper money, their use of coal, and gunpowder.... What if they had been given time to take this a little further, would we have a very early steam engine? Attack rockets to dissuade the Mongols from attacking? A powerful Navy?

I suspect that peaceful relations with the Mongol Empire at that stage approaches the oxymoronic. That said, I have often wondered what it would take to stand the Chinese military dynamic on its head. It worked for Europe, after all. All the ingredients are there. Oversimplifying a bit, you can use technology to logistically leverage manpower. Southern Song China had technology, and at that time much of Northern China depended on Southern rice to feed it, so manpower was not the problem. How do we get them to turn their ample reservoir of potential recruits into a fighting force that can stand up to the traditional military elites of the North and Northwest? It's not a problem of feasibility - even bad cavalry beats bad infantry, but good infantry has good cavalry for breakfast. Just look what the Swiss did to the condotte and the Burgundians, the Janissaries to the Mamluks, or the Strelki to the Tartars.

How to make Southern China martial? Or, if you prefer, where to tap a mercenary potential that can counterbalance the western steppe peoples?

 

[splee]

I suspect that peaceful relations with the Mongol Empire at that stage approaches the oxymoronic. That said, I have often wondered what it would take to stand the Chinese military dynamic on its head. It worked for Europe, after all. All the ingredients are there. Oversimplifying a bit, you can use technology to logistically leverage manpower. Southern Song China had technology, and at that time much of Northern China depended on Southern rice to feed it, so manpower was not the problem. How do we get them to turn their ample reservoir of potential recruits into a fighting force that can stand up to the traditional military elites of the North and Northwest? It's not a problem of feasibility - even bad cavalry beats bad infantry, but good infantry has good cavalry for breakfast. Just look what the Swiss did to the condotte and the Burgundians, the Janissaries to the Mamluks, or the Strelki to the Tartars.

How to make Southern China martial? Or, if you prefer, where to tap a mercenary potential that can counterbalance the western steppe peoples?

The Southern Song withstood the Mongol invasion for 47 years, from 1234 to 1279. The Mongols tried first with a flank movement into modern day Yunnan, conquering the Kingdom of Dali there. Then they moved onto Sichuan, but the Song defenders held there, and in 1259 Möngke Kahn before the Chinese stronghold of Diaoyucheng. Only in 1273 the Mongols bleached the Chinese line at Xiangfan.

Make the Song offensive in 1234 towards Kaifeng and Luoyang successful. This will give the Song a more workable defensive line along the Yellow River - which flowed into the Yellow Sea south of the Shandong peninsula then. If they could improve their logistics and internal governance, and hold down the Mongols for one or two decades, and Mongol may propose a ceasefire and be happy with the Song as a nominal tributary.

 

[kasumigenx]

well...

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m65/asura_miko/modern_alt_eastasia.jpg

I think an islamic song dynasty is possible as well if it survives.....

 

[RealityX]

"Make the Song offensive in 1234 towards Kaifeng and Luoyang successful. This will give the Song a more workable defensive line along the Yellow River - which flowed into the Yellow Sea south of the Shandong peninsula then. If they could improve their logistics and internal governance, and hold down the Mongols for one or two decades, and Mongol may propose a ceasefire and be happy with the Song as a nominal tributary."

I was thinking a more reasonable Yangtze river frontier for the Song/Mongol boarder though.... or is this impractical?

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Anyone know why the character for SOng is IIRC, 'tree' with a pie-tin hat?

 

[pieman3141]

Anyone know why the character for SOng is IIRC, 'tree' with a pie-tin hat?

The word is actually "wood." I'm not quite sure what "Song" actually means. Wikipedia says the name comes from the "Song Prefecture," where the first emperor was from.

 

[Faeelin]

How to make Southern China martial? Or, if you prefer, where to tap a mercenary potential that can counterbalance the western steppe peoples?

I suspect you'd need a different dynasty, alas. The Song were simply too leery of a strong military, and so kept it, while large, unprestigious, underfunded, and unimportant. (The last was goign to be something witty, but I can't think of it).

My favorite POD to save the Song is actually way earlier, in the 1080s.Have the Song defeat the Tanguts. A Song victory would boost the prestige of Wang Anshi and the other reformers, allow the military access to the horse breeders of Northern China, and let the Song expand westward, at a time when the nomadic tribes were divided.

This would also stop the Song from losing access to the nitrates of northern China, and they wouldn't have suffered the collapse of the ironworking complexes of the region.

 

[Ofaloaf]

Southern Song did have a powerful navy. It was the navy that kept the Mongols in check for decades after the conquest of north China. Where do you think Kublai Khan got his fleet for the invasion of Japan and Indonesia?

The Chinese had been a sea faring people for thousands of years. Chinese ships were operating in the Persian Gulf since the Tang dynasty. The height of maritime power was during the Ming. By the time of the Qing dynasty China had become more land bound than prior periods.

With the notable exception of Zheng He's voyages, official Chinese policy even during the Ming never really favored emphasizing maritime power. Certainly individual merchants maintained trade routes with Corea and Nippon, not to mention European trade posts in Manilla, Batavia, Malacca, &c, but the government seems to have been reluctant to embrace the idea of becoming a great naval power. Not entirely certain why.

 

[tallwingedgoat]

With the notable exception of Zheng He's voyages, official Chinese policy even during the Ming never really favored emphasizing maritime power. Certainly individual merchants maintained trade routes with Corea and Nippon, not to mention European trade posts in Manilla, Batavia, Malacca, &c, but the government seems to have been reluctant to embrace the idea of becoming a great naval power. Not entirely certain why.

Maritime trade was much more important in Europe where no kingdom was self sufficient. China on the other hand did not require foreign trade and indeed the economy was agricultural based rather than commerce based. From the government's point of view they had no interest in the sea as it did not generate taxes nor were there any threats from the sea. China's maritime neighbours were all less developed and poorer than China, hence holding little attraction for Chinese state involvement with them. Historically China was threatened by northern barbarians and domestic rebellions, rarely by sea powers, unless we count pirates. Most pirates were Chinese fishermen and sea traders. Anti piracy tactics often involved suppressing of coastal sea going communities and the ship building industry.

 

[Xenos]

The Chinese had been a sea faring people for thousands of years. Chinese ships were operating in the Persian Gulf since the Tang dynasty. The height of maritime power was during the Ming.

Yeah, but only at the beginning of the dynasty. It was the Ming who eventually made the building of trade ships illegal and destroyed centuries of accumulated maritime knowledge and tradition.

 

[xchen08]

There's also the confucian thing about merchants being at the bottom of the social hierarchy under even the peasants. Soldiers also don't fare too well under Confucianism, but with China under constant threat from more militaristic societies, it is when the warrior aristocrats are strong that China is strong.

 

[Admiral Brown]

Maritime trade was much more important in Europe where no kingdom was self sufficient. China on the other hand did not require foreign trade and indeed the economy was agricultural based rather than commerce based. From the government's point of view they had no interest in the sea as it did not generate taxes nor were there any threats from the sea. China's maritime neighbours were all less developed and poorer than China, hence holding little attraction for Chinese state involvement with them. Historically China was threatened by northern barbarians and domestic rebellions, rarely by sea powers, unless we count pirates. Most pirates were Chinese fishermen and sea traders. Anti piracy tactics often involved suppressing of coastal sea going communities and the ship building industry.

This is right, but a Song China might not have been so self-sufficient if the Mongols controled Northern China and blocked their access to esential goods (they might not block this acces, but might tax them with extremely high rates). In such scenario, Song China might prefer to expand through the sea to compansate for her lack of access to the Northern markets.

IIRC, Maritime commerce expanded during the Song, continued growing under the Yuan and the Ming inherited this tradition... before halting it abruptly. The Ming restaured the grand Cannal, making coastal navigation unnecesary. A divided China might have favoured maritime expansion, as ther would be no Grand Canal.

There's still the problem Faeelin stated: the survival of the Song is difficult, because the Song distrasted the military, because they feared a coup and a military dictatorship. They prefered a strong civilian lidership and a weak military. I don't know how to solve this, because their fears where probably well-founded, and a country with and army prone to rebel isn't going to be vay stable.

 

[tallwingedgoat]

I agree, a lasting Southern Song have a good chance to adopt a maritime outlook. With a stronger navy perhaps they can use it to counter-attack the Mongols in north China.

The need for cavalry can be met by importing horses from Persia and the Middle East. Perhaps a surviving Song would advance firearms faster and thus matchlock units could be raised in large numbers.

 

[Faeelin]

Maritime trade was much more important in Europe where no kingdom was self sufficient. China on the other hand did not require foreign trade and indeed the economy was agricultural based rather than commerce based.

Umm. Taking Europe as a whole, one could also say its economy was indeed agriculturally based rather than commerce based. I know you know this, but you're buying too readily into "China, as stagnant and unchanging as the sea, or Renaissance Italy, depending on the period."

In any case, I'm trying to imagine a Ming and Qing state without European silver. Or heck, the Qing without cotton from India.

From the government's point of view they had no interest in the sea as it did not generate taxes nor were there any threats from the sea. China's

Pardon? Foreign trade made up a significant chunk of thje Empire's income during the Song dynasties; and it was hardly irrelevent during the Ming, and even Qing, eras.

Southern Song did have a powerful navy. It was the navy that kept the Mongols in check for decades after the conquest of north China. Where do you think Kublai Khan got his fleet for the invasion of Japan and Indonesia?

For Japan? Sources say Korea.

 

[splee]

Maritime trade was much more important in Europe where no kingdom was self sufficient. China on the other hand did not require foreign trade and indeed the economy was agricultural based rather than commerce based. From the government's point of view they had no interest in the sea as it did not generate taxes nor were there any threats from the sea. China's maritime neighbours were all less developed and poorer than China, hence holding little attraction for Chinese state involvement with them. Historically China was threatened by northern barbarians and domestic rebellions, rarely by sea powers, unless we count pirates. Most pirates were Chinese fishermen and sea traders. Anti piracy tactics often involved suppressing of coastal sea going communities and the ship building industry.

I think I once read that the Southern Song derives 5 or 10 percent of its revenue from tariffs. So they did have some interest in it.

"Make the Song offensive in 1234 towards Kaifeng and Luoyang successful. This will give the Song a more workable defensive line along the Yellow River - which flowed into the Yellow Sea south of the Shandong peninsula then. If they could improve their logistics and internal governance, and hold down the Mongols for one or two decades, and Mongol may propose a ceasefire and be happy with the Song as a nominal tributary."

I was thinking a more reasonable Yangtze river frontier for the Song/Mongol boarder though.... or is this impractical?

Yangtze river lies too deeply south. This left too little room of maneuver for the Southern Song. If the Mongols can station on the northern bank of the Yangtze, they could have easily built ships and start invade the Song. That's why in Chinese history, the usual frontier for a North-South divide goes along the River Huai and Qinling mountains, with the Yangtze river as a second defensive line. That is why I believe a success in 1234 would help - it gives Song one more defensive line to gradually wear down the Mongols. Historically it takes 40 years for the Mongol to breach the Yangtze line, starting from the Huai.