Smarter Israel in '67?

[Cosmos]

Actually the smartest thing that Israel could have done in 67 was a massive population relocation. i.e kicking out the majority of the arab population in the gaza and the west bank to Egypt and Lebanon and formally annexing Gaza and the West Bank...

First of all, what means do you propose that Israel should have employed in order to get Egypt and Lebanon to accept the expelled populations? For the 19 years that Egypt controled the Gaza strip the Gaza Palestinians were locked in there and not allowed to reside in Egypt proper. And, BTW, why Lebanon? What does Lebanon have to do with Gaza and the WB?

Second, what value do you think the Gaza strip is to Israel? I've heard reasonable arguments as to why Israel might need the WB for security purposes. The Jordan River and Valley is a natural barrier, hard for tanks to cross; the distance from Tul Karem to the Mediterranian coast is only 12 KM - we've heard all the arguments and there is a logic to them. But Gaza?? What's the cost-benefit ratio of making such a stink to hold onto it? For the nice beaches, the greenhouses, the relatively small land area, is it really worth the price of irritating so many people? This is exactly why Israel finally decided to get out of there. Should have done it long ago.

 

[S. Amir]

Perhaps, Israel should annex the whole of jerusalem and maybe Hebron followed unilateral withdrawal from the rest of WB and Gaza. Then build defence barriers preventing Palestinians from entering Israel. Anybody who tries to climb will be shot. In the age of missiles, a buffer zone like west bank is practically useless not to mention a large anti-israeli population also call it their home. Obviously Israel should warn her neighbour that she will not hesitate to launch preemptive strike if an arab army mobilizes near her border. I think anyone would feel rather anxious if their neighbour's army mobilizes near the border. Israel could then ignore international protest, like she usually did. As for the palestinians, a slightly smaller homeland is better than being occupied by infidels. If the palestinians continue their war against Israel despite having won their independance, the west might hesitate to support them.

 

[Midgard]

Perhaps, Israel should annex the whole of jerusalem and maybe Hebron followed unilateral withdrawal from the rest of WB and Gaza. Then build defence barriers preventing Palestinians from entering Israel. Anybody who tries to climb will be shot. In the age of missiles, a buffer zone like west bank is practically useless not to mention a large anti-israeli population also call it their home. Obviously Israel should warn her neighbour that she will not hesitate to launch preemptive strike if an arab army mobilizes near her border. I think anyone would feel rather anxious if their neighbour's army mobilizes near the border. Israel could then ignore international protest, like she usually did. As for the palestinians, a slightly smaller homeland is better than being occupied by infidels. If the palestinians continue their war against Israel despite having won their independance, the west might hesitate to support them.

I think the last sentence goes fairly close to my opinion about the entire affair in the region - had the Palestinians negotiated in good faith, they would have had their own state long ago. Presently, it seems to be more in the interests of their leadership to keep the conflict going, since without it, they will have to actually manage the country instead of blaming everything on Israel - a much harder job than managing what is essentially a low-key war affair. If Fatah's management of the territories is any indication, I shudder to think of what it would be like to live in an independent Palestine - they have proven, time after time, their complete incompetence at playing government, and chances are, an independent Palestine would quickly devolve into either a state of total chaos with competing militias and warlords fighting each other and everyone else, or a totalitarian dictatorship, should one of these warlords prove to be successful enough to off the others. The presence of Israel as a "common enemy" is probably the main reason Palestine has not gone to that stage as of yet - and the fact that they keep on coming up with unreasonable and definitely unacceptable (to Israel) demands is simply a delaying tactic, IMO, since if Palestine becomes an actual state and performs an act of aggression against Israel, it will not be a terror attack performed by a non-state group/organization - it will be considered an act of war, and as such would be likely to provoke the kind of response from Israel that would make the current response seem mild indeed - and it does not take a crystal ball to be able to tell that such acts will happen, regardless of whether or not there is a Palestinian state.

 

[Midgard]

Oh, I know that... but Peter Cowen said that there was know independent "Palestine" at all... Not that there was no Arab Palestine... I actually see the point quite clearly, though if the Palestinians are just a designation made up to have a separate (and thus stateless) Arab ethnicity in Israel, West Bank, and Gaza, then why would a majority of Jordanians be Palestinian?

From what I understand (and correct me if I am wrong), the designation of many Jordanians as "Palestinian" is similar to designation of many Americans as, say, "Ohioan" or "New Englander" - not an ethnicity, but a location from which they, or their parents originate; in this case, it is mostly as a distinction with the Hashemite ruling dynasty, which is Bedouin in origin, as opposed to the urban dwellers that are likely to consider themselves "Palestinian" even though such a designation has less to do with major ethnical differences from other Arabs, and more with distinction with the Hashemites, who AFAIK originated in a different area.

 

[Midgard]

It's not unreasonable to suspect that a portion of the Palestinians on the southern west bank (Judah) may actually have Jewish ancestry, and that many of the Palestinians in the northern west bank (Samaria) are actually Samaritans, like the several hundred Samaritans who live around Nablus fully aware that they are Samariatan.

You are almost certainly right - especially when we are dealing with pre-1948 populations, AFAIK the line between Palestinian and Jew was very, very blurry, and had more to do with religion (the latter being, obviously, Jewish, and the former either Christian or Muslim) than with actual ethnicity. The issue here is whether or not the majority of Palestinians can claim that ancestry, which I don't believe to be the case - AFAIK many were drawn to the area because of British rule being somewhat better than the rule of many Arab princes, and as such, the bulk of Palestinian population actually may not originate in the area proper.

 

[Oddball]

Difference of opinion

I think I find your use of the term 'even' offensive in this context.

And I find it way to deffensive in this context...

But I dont give him a hard time because of it, because I respect his right to express his view of the matter even if I dont approve of it

 

[htgriffin]

Don't be so negative the Arabs would really have to work at it to treat the Israelis worse than the Israelis have treated the Palestinians.

• My POD was if Israel elected to treat the 'Palestinians' better than OTL
• You really do not know how badly the various Arab nations screwed over thier Palestinian 'Bretheren', did you

HTG

 

[htgriffin]

"That's not too difficult, given that the Israelis haven't generally engaged in systematic slaughter."

This would depend upon what you meant by systematic. What the Israelis have done is (and this is just off the top of my head): Ghettoised the Palestinians, stolen private Palestinian land and assets, imprisoned without trial, developed nuclear weapons in contempt of the international community, committed acts of terrorism domestically and abroad, used mass reprisals as a means of civic control, denied education and basic amenities to the Palestinians, killed children will predetermined mallice, murdered international observers to thier crimes, tortured, run concentration camps, aided others in mass murder, murdered individual opponents, &c. &c.. I note that with the exception running death camps the sole difference between the Israelis and the Nazis is one of degree alone. So on this basis if no other I can see no reason to expect the Arabs to behave any worse than the Israelis.

<boggles>

Where on Earth are you getting your information from. Stormfront?

HTG

 

[htgriffin]

Actually the smartest thing that Israel could have done in 67 was a massive population relocation. i.e kicking out the majority of the arab population in the gaza and the west bank to Egypt and Lebanon and formally annexing Gaza and the West Bank. Oh sure the world would have screamed bloody murder for a few years, but after a while things would have calmed down and it would have been business as usual.

There would have been no road blocks, no daily terrorist activity, no daily death toll, no need for an internal protective wall.

After 20 or so years, there might even have been formal peaceful relations among the bordering countries.

Look at Germany. You dont see the Germans screaming for Polish and Russian blood for the return of their Prussian homeland. The Germans have simply given up on that idea.

Look at Kosovo. The Serbians have all but given up on reclaiming their homeland due to their inability to militarily reclaim it and the fact that they are only 5% of the population.

The same would have been true in Israel.

You may want to note taht in none of the cases you list were the refugees kept in camps for multiple generations and refused citizenship in order to claim a griviance by the nationalists.

I stand by my statement that the Palestinians have gotten it in the teeth by everybody concerned... and would like to see a bit of discussion about at least the Israelis giving them a break (hint-hint).

HTG

 

[Shope]

WARNING

Be very careful here.

If you are anti-Zionist and win your argument, you will be banned from the site--it happens every time. The admin doesn't tolerate criticism of Israel.

 

[Nicole]

Actually, Ian bans on racism, which these discussions often tend into- from both sides, I believe midgardmetal was once punished for making overly anti-Palestinian comments for example.

 

[Grimm Reaper]

Shope, Ian does nothing of the sort.

He certainly does condemn gratuitous personal insults against other board members and experts who are (presumably) not on the board to defend themselves and even in those cases will generally give one or more warnings when he feels things are getting out of hand.

 

[Oddball]

Be very careful here.

If you are anti-Zionist and win your argument, you will be banned from the site--it happens every time. The admin doesn't tolerate criticism of Israel.

Pretty lame comment regarding Ian I think

Btw, who is the "anti-Zionist?" Not HTG I presume?

 

[oudi14]

smarter Israel in 67

I sometimes wonder why the Arabs didn't create a Palestinian state on the West Bank and Gaza sometime during the period 1948-67 when they controlled those places. They claim to love their Palestinian brothers so much, and they could easily have given them their state any time during this long 19 year window, and there would have been absolutely nothing the Israelis could have done to stop them. So why didn't they? I am cynical enough to wonder if a] they really loved their brothers as much as they claimed, and b] maybe the Jordanian govt. wanted the land for themselves, and to hell with the Palestinians. I cant believe that Egypt would 'want' Gaza though. Nasser could have taken it upon himself to create a palestinian state there, and even give them a corner of the Sinai bordering Gaza. Empty desert, but the Israelis once made it bloom. Anyone remember Yamit? So what about it? Why no Palestinian state back then? Comments?

 

[orbeyonde]

First of all, what means do you propose that Israel should have employed in order to get Egypt and Lebanon to accept the expelled populations? For the 19 years that Egypt controled the Gaza strip the Gaza Palestinians were locked in there and not allowed to reside in Egypt proper. And, BTW, why Lebanon? What does Lebanon have to do with Gaza and the WB?

Second, what value do you think the Gaza strip is to Israel? I've heard reasonable arguments as to why Israel might need the WB for security purposes. The Jordan River and Valley is a natural barrier, hard for tanks to cross; the distance from Tul Karem to the Mediterranian coast is only 12 KM - we've heard all the arguments and there is a logic to them. But Gaza?? What's the cost-benefit ratio of making such a stink to hold onto it? For the nice beaches, the greenhouses, the relatively small land area, is it really worth the price of irritating so many people? This is exactly why Israel finally decided to get out of there. Should have done it long ago.

You are correct that was a typo on my part. It should have said Jordan, not Lebanon.

After the war, Israel does not give Egypt or Jordan a choice, the arab population is herded to the borders and any attempt to close the borders leads to the destruction of the border wall keeping the arabs in Israel. Once the population has been vacated, the border is reinstated and enforced.


As to why keep the Gaza strip, after the '73 war. Israel got the Sinai. It would be too difficult for Israel to keep the Sinai if there is a large Arab population in Gaza. If Gaza is vacated in 67 and the Sinai is vacated in 73, Israel has no need to return anything to anyone.

The 79 peace treaty between Israel and Egypt is a joke. The only thing keeping the Egyptian from launching missiles at Israel is the 2 billion the US gives Egypt every year. Even after that money, the Egyptians are sending tons of arms to the Gaza for Hamas and Fatah to use against Israel.

Israel has received no benefit from returning Sinai, so they might as well keep it.

 

[Bulgaroktonos]

Be very careful here.

If you are anti-Zionist and win your argument, you will be banned from the site--it happens every time. The admin doesn't tolerate criticism of Israel.

Tielhard is living proof that you are really quite wrong.

 

[Cosmos]

Perhaps, Israel should annex the whole of jerusalem and maybe Hebron followed unilateral withdrawal from the rest of WB and Gaza. Then build defence barriers preventing Palestinians from entering Israel. Anybody who tries to climb will be shot. In the age of missiles, a buffer zone like west bank is practically useless not to mention a large anti-israeli population also call it their home. Obviously Israel should warn her neighbour that she will not hesitate to launch preemptive strike if an arab army mobilizes near her border. I think anyone would feel rather anxious if their neighbour's army mobilizes near the border. Israel could then ignore international protest, like she usually did. As for the palestinians, a slightly smaller homeland is better than being occupied by infidels. If the palestinians continue their war against Israel despite having won their independance, the west might hesitate to support them.

Amir,

As one who likes to think I favor pragmatism (but don't we all!), and having lived 4 years in Israel, I cannot see the benefit in Israel annexing Hebron at this point -for either Jews or Palestinians. Most of my friends and relatives in Israel don't want their tax money to go to protecting 400 families and building new settlement roads when the roads in Tel Aviv are full of potholes. I actually think the northern WB (Samaria) is more important for Israel to hold, with the Jordan valley, if it is going to hold any of the WB at all. I don't think Arab East Jerusalem needs to be in Israel either, although there the non-Jewish residents should have the option of being Israelis or Palestinians. As I understand, some of them do not want to give up their kupat cholim (national health insurance), and I can't blame them for that.

 

[The Sandman]

In my view, the bits of the West Bank that Israel should and will likely keep are the three biggest settlement blocs (Maaleh Adumim, Gush Etzion, and Ariel), along with East Jerusalem and such land as is necessary to link those settlements with the rest of Israel. Parts of the Jordan River valley and the Dead Sea coastline might be kept for economic reasons (water from the Jordan, minerals from the Dead Sea). The rest of it will go to the Palestinians.

 

[Cosmos]

...The 79 peace treaty between Israel and Egypt is a joke. The only thing keeping the Egyptian from launching missiles at Israel is the 2 billion the US gives Egypt every year. Even after that money, the Egyptians are sending tons of arms to the Gaza for Hamas and Fatah to use against Israel.

Israel has received no benefit from returning Sinai, so they might as well keep it.

Oh, no question that support for terrorism in Israel comes from elements within Egypt among other places. But don't underestimate the significance of a country's government going along with this type of treaty, even if their people are grinding their teeth. The fact is that prior to the 79 treaty Israel considered Egypt a threat to its very existence. Egypt had been Israel's major military opponant in 4 wars since 1948. In 1967 Israel launched a first strike on Egypt and won the war only because they destroyed the Egyptian Air Force before it could get off the ground. Had they not done so, Israel might have ceased to exist. Then in '73 came the Yom Kippur war and Israel almost came to an end, again because of Egypt. Israel understood this, which is why they agreed to the treaty. Otherwise it would have meant perpetual war with Egypt, with a last resort to open Pandora's box and nuke Cairo. I don't think anyone would want a TL where that had happened. Yes, things now are not so wonderful, but the chances of Egypt overrunning Israel with an invasion are pretty low. At the same time, they have economic arrangements - Israeli tourism in the Sinai and Egyptian natural gas being sold to Israel.

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

Tielhard is living proof that you are really quite wrong.

Technically no: Tielhard has never actually won an argument regarding Israel/Palestine.

Shope, if you think this is a... den of Zionist pigs or whatever, feel free to leave. Anything that raises the average intelligence of the board is welcome.