Sir John Valentine Carden survives.

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And Rolls.
I remember a passage from TE Lawrence about how well a Rolls turned into an armoured car. Add steel plate. Add a couple of springs to the suspension, et voila.
The Rolls Royce Armoured car was chosen by the Tank Museum as its 100th Video because of its longevity, reliability and utility throughout both wars and between the wars

 
I really wish I could work out a plausible way for the BEF to have a couple of Armoured Car brigades when they go to France in 1914 and while I'm at it at least one lorry borne Infantry division. It's technically possible but finding a reason.....
 
I really wish I could work out a plausible way for the BEF to have a couple of Armoured Car brigades when they go to France in 1914 and while I'm at it at least one lorry borne Infantry division. It's technically possible but finding a reason.....
Problem is the Armoured car was a later development in 1914-1915 thanks to Churchill when Royal Navy officers drove out to hunt germans and began to up armouring and adding more weapons.

The first offical armoured car was to late to take advantage of the war of movement on the western front however in Mesopotamia (I think) and the Belgian armoured cars in Russia performed very well in fact in 1918 the armoured cars also did very well.
 
Like I said it's technically possible but finding a reason to speed things up is the problem. Trouble in India perhaps, or Ireland?
India more likely or when the British army was going through its major reform process after the Second Boer War looking for something that could move ahead of the armoured trains maybe?
 
Could try having people in India and Ireland poison the horses.
I don’t think Ireland was as restive before world war one in-fact I think there was a vote on home rule in Westminster just before the war kicked off but I’m not sure on this one.
 
Problem is the Armoured car was a later development in 1914-1915 thanks to Churchill when Royal Navy officers drove out to hunt germans and began to up armouring and adding more weapons.

The first offical armoured car was to late to take advantage of the war of movement on the western front however in Mesopotamia (I think) and the Belgian armoured cars in Russia performed very well in fact in 1918 the armoured cars also did very well.
First Belgian armoured cars were August 1914 and only moved to the East when things went static. Armoured cars were used by the British on the western front when it was static ( as part of the machine gun corps ) but mainly as rear patrol elements or quick response if things got briefly mobile.
 
So I'm wondering why a selection of A11's and MkVI's were sent to the Sudan. Of all the tanks in North Africa the A11 is the least suited to a long trek across Ethiopia, in part because Kennedy will have been assassinated before they get half way. Yes I am talking about TTL's faster A11.

I would have thought that sending not only a faster but uniform force would be better. I know I caused a ruckus talking about this tank yesterday but I really would have thought the A10 would have been sent. There aren't enough to arm a full batallion in North Africa and they are too slow to work with the rest of the WDF. Yes the same is true of the A11 but the A10 will be able to move across the expanse of East Africa quicker than the A11.
I suppose I fully expected the A11 to be in a fairly static role right now. Keep them in Egypt as a reserve of sorts, guarding valuable areas like airfields and ports etc but not being asked to move much. That was why I was so convinced Crete would be a good location for them all eventually because they get shoved near valuable targets in small numbers and move all of a hundred yards.
The A10's however are in a strange ace right now. They still have some useful life left as fighting tanks but not main line fighting tanks. East Africa, at least to me makes sense as a destination because they have OK mobility as well as good armour and firepower. Thing is that there mobility is quite a bit less than any of the other WDF tanks bar the A11 whilst not having any better gun and not enough armour to make up for there slower speed. That was part of why I also suggested Australia as a destination, the A10 is a bit of an odd man out right now.
 
So I'm wondering why a selection of A11's and MkVI's were sent to the Sudan. Of all the tanks in North Africa the A11 is the least suited to a long trek across Ethiopia, in part because Kennedy will have been assassinated before they get half way. Yes I am talking about TTL's faster A11.
My guess would be as support vehicles for hitting Italian strong-points. They might be slow, but the Italians have nothing that can penetrate them, and the pom-poms will be good against almost anything the Italians have.

I would have thought that sending not only a faster but uniform force would be better. I know I caused a ruckus talking about this tank yesterday but I really would have thought the A10 would have been sent. There aren't enough to arm a full batallion in North Africa and they are too slow to work with the rest of the WDF. Yes the same is true of the A11 but the A10 will be able to move across the expanse of East Africa quicker than the A11.
But can be taken down by the Cannone da 47/32. They're not going to be sending many tanks, so why send ones that risk being wrecked by enemy fire?
 
My guess would be as support vehicles for hitting Italian strong-points. They might be slow, but the Italians have nothing that can penetrate them, and the pom-poms will be good against almost anything the Italians have.
Possibly, thing is getting them to the strong points is going to be a pain. If they have to travel at high speed a significant amount of the time then mechanical issues become a real issue. At that point it doesn't matter if the Italian's can knock them out or not if the tank is broken down a mile away from where it is needed.
Yes the A10 will suffer problems as well but if the two vehicles are running at the same speed then the A11 will, in general be more taxed. Particularly of that speed is at or near the A11's top speed.
But can be taken down by the Cannone da 47/32. They're not going to be sending many tanks, so why send ones that risk being wrecked by enemy fire?
Why send men into combat who risk being killed? OK, I know, that was a pretty facetious argument but it does hold some truth. The A10 is a more versatile if more vulnerable vehicle. Mobility while not the be all is still pretty important.
 
Possibly, thing is getting them to the strong points is going to be a pain. If they have to travel at high speed a significant amount of the time then mechanical issues become a real issue. At that point it doesn't matter if the Italian's can knock them out or not if the tank is broken down a mile away from where it is needed.
Yes the A10 will suffer problems as well but if the two vehicles are running at the same speed then the A11 will, in general be more taxed. Particularly of that speed is at or near the A11's top speed.
That's a fair point. There's no really ideal tank they can spare, but on the whole the A10 probably would be the better choice.

Why send men into combat who risk being killed? OK, I know, that was a pretty facetious argument but it does hold some truth. The A10 is a more versatile if more vulnerable vehicle. Mobility while not the be all is still pretty important.
True. As for your analogy, if you have 5000 troops, losing a hundred will not significantly affect your strength. If you only have 50 though, losing even a dozen will do so.
 
A slight divergence (apologies Alan) to answer Peg Leg's Question. It was many years ago now (rather depressing to be able to say that) but, I did my BA and MA dissertations on the military aspects of the 2nd Boer War (although I no longer have the copies of the records from the inquiry I took from the National Archives). If you want a plausible reason for vehicle development, you can make it an outcome of the post-war Iraq style inquiry (a far more effective one I might add).

2 potentially viable reasons:-

1) French's destruction of the Cavalry (in terms of exhausting the horses) to relieve sieges meant the Boer Commandos were able to escape (with the gold reserves of the Transvaal Republic) so motor vehicles might (emphasis on might, as fuel would potentially limit it), alleviate the problem in the future.

2) Concentration camps apart (although the Liberal government was able to make some headway in the next election with moral outrage overage them), from a purely military standpoint, Kitchener threw huge amounts of resources and hundreds of thousands of troops into a vast, semi-fortified telegraph network to detect Boer Commando movements. You could make the case that with motor vehicles, this would be unnecessary in future.

To return to the story. Does the development of the Valiant and it's successor totally butterfly the Churchill? Also, is the use of the Lion in tanks having any appreciable effect on aero engine development? Perhaps getting Napper to tool up earlier rather than have to get a kick in the proverbial posterior from English Electric?
 

Mark1878

Donor
I don’t think Ireland was as restive before world war one in-fact I think there was a vote on home rule in Westminster just before the war kicked off but I’m not sure on this one.
You do need to look into it a bit more.

Yes there was going to be home rule so the Catholics were happy ish but the ulster protestants did not like that and threatened to go into armed result. The army officers were going to refuse to put the insurgency down. See Sir Edward Carson and he Curragh Mutiny for details.
 
To return to the story. Does the development of the Valiant and it's successor totally butterfly the Churchill?
At this point it's uncertain, but given that the Churchill will need a lot more testing and development before it's really, and the fact that the Valiant's follow-up (the Victor) is already in the pipeline, and will have the Merritt-Brown gearbox (really the Churchill's only saving grace), the Churchill will will struggle to find a purpose. I think even if Britain keeps with the Infantry/Cavalry tank divisions, the requirements will be modified, so that any Infantry tank must be capable of sustained running at 12( or maybe even 15)mph, which will kill the Churchill.
 
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At this point it's uncertain, but given that the Churchill will need a lot more testing and development before it's really, and the fact that the Valiant's follow-up (the Victor) is already in the pipeline, and will have the Merritt-Brown gearbox (really the Churchill's only saving grace), the Churchill will will struggle to find a purpose.
Perhaps as the basis for the "funnies"? Given it's better over very rough ground and at hill climbing.

Or send them to Burma.
 
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