Sir John Valentine Carden survives.

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Looking at all the cock-up with sending orders, did they ever punish their generals or discharge them for this?
Bit eye opening at how bad they handling this, felt that unlike WW1 generals those that end up in higher rank here is not coping well.
 
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Looking at all the cock-up with sending orders, did they ever punish their generals or discharge them for this?
Bit eye opening at how bad they handling this, felt that unlike WW1 generals those that end up in higher rank here is not coping well.
It may be that compared to the French they are doing well?
 
It may be that compared to the French they are doing well?
"Well, we did better than the French" is a phrase liable to send British institutional thinking into paralysis.

On the one hand, we've beaten the French. Clearly, this is good.

On the other hand, we have a very low opinion of the French, so beating them isn't an achievement.

So, this is good. And it is also not good. So this is good, and not good. So this is- ERROR! ERROR! ERRO-

RESTARTING. HOW ABOUT A NICE CUP OF TEA WHILE YOU WAIT?
 
24 May 1940. Boulogne. France.
24 May 1940. Boulogne. France.

Army Group A, under pressure from 4th Army’s Commander-in-chief, Von Kluge, gave permission for XIX Panzer Corps to be launched against Boulogne and Calais. The situation at Arras had resolved itself the day before as the British holding their position and then withdrawing northward, they were judged no longer a threat to the gap between the Panzer Divisions in the vanguard and the Infantry Divisions following on.

2nd Panzer Division, having cooled their heels around Montreuil for two days, were feeling rested, but frustrated. The reconnaissance units sent out constantly found that the undefended approaches to Boulogne were steadily growing less healthy for the German troops. It looked as if the French were putting together some kind of line of defence to block their path. General Rudolf Veiel, 2nd Panzer Division CO, had every reason to believe that if he’d been allowed to move on 21 May he would have been able to take Boulogne almost bloodlessly. He decided that his Division would move forward in two columns, Obrest Von Prittwich und Graffon would attack the southern approaches to the port, while Obrest Von Vaerst’s column would encircle the town and attack it from the north and east. The whole movement of 2nd Panzer Division would be screened by the movement of 1st Panzer Division who were moving to attack Calais. The 10th Panzer Division was held back in reserve.

Almost the first thing that felt different was that the Von Vaerst’s column was attacked by a large force RAF Blenheims. The British bombers didn’t do too much damage, and they left four burning wrecks of aircraft in the fields around the panzers. The attack nonetheless delayed the advance for two hours while order was restored. Prittwich’s column faced at Nesles a screen of French anti-tank guns which had been dug in to cover crossroads. Each time a couple of panzers would be knocked out and the rest of the column needed to spread out to try to flank the French positions to knock out the guns.

General Laquetot, the officer commanding the defence of Boulogne, had established a line from the various units under his command in a line running from the sea, through Samer and Desvres. The main part of his own 21e Infantry Division which was meant to make up the bulk of the defenders of Boulogne hadn’t made it, so he had been busy putting together a scratch force from the various odds and ends which had made their way to Boulogne. The town itself was defended primarily by the two British Guards Battalions (2nd Irish & 2nd Welsh), with support from other British units which had ended up here. The time given by the Germans had been put to good use. Brigadier Fox-Pitt, commanding the British troops had managed organise his forces into a well-established position guarding the high ground over-looking the port, and had managed to get his full allocation of anti-tank guns emplaced, as well as a few more which he’d begged, borrowed or stolen.

The German fondness for outflanking positions was something General Laquetot had learned the hard way, and he’d organised his forces on the line of defence to be interlocked, protecting each other’s flanks from just such a tactic. The 2nd Panzer Division had to fight very hard to make progress, one French gunner had been crushed to death by panzer after two of its companions had been put out of action by him.

At Desvres, elements on the left flank of 1st Panzer Division had come into contact with the French positions and had been held up by them. Laquetot had managed to use the two H35 tanks that were in Boulogne to good purpose. Although one of them was incapable of movement it had been towed into a position where it could act as a hardpoint in a defensive position. The other had been reinforced when the French general had managed to hijack a few Somua S35s and H35s from 2e Cavalry Corps which had made the mistake of coming into his command zone. He was using the six French tanks, with the two British Light Tanks, as his mobile reserve. The British, who’d promised more tanks from Calais, had reneged on their promise, keeping them all back for their own use at Calais and St Omer.

Against two Panzer Divisions Laquetot’s defensive line, no matter how well constructed was always going to lose. He didn’t have the artillery support, or simply the numbers to hold back the German flow. It did however mean that Germans still hadn’t forced themselves past the first line of defence at Boulogne by the time darkness fell. First Panzer Division was also still held up at Desvres, it would need more time in the morning to make any breakthrough.
Boulogne24May.gif


NB text in italic differs from OTL. The fundamental difference is the events that take place here on the 24th May, happened on 22nd May. The extra day's pause 'to clear up the situation at Arras' means that the defenders of Boulogne have time to properly prepare their positions, unlike OTL where it was all a bit thrown together. It also means, I presume that Laquetot had time to gather up some more forces to make up for the absence of the majority of his 21e DI. OTL 2nd Panzers arrived at British positions at Boulogne at 17:00hrs on 22nd, here they won't until next day. Same with 1st Panzers, there were held up on the 22nd at Desvres and didn't get past them until noon 23rd. This gave Calais an extra period of time, which will be as long +2 days here.
 
Thanks for all your thoughts troops.
I hadn't really thought of the possible effects on Norway or much else for that matter. My primary thought is the British having a better tank than the Valentine. The problem with these TLs is they grow exponentially, and TBH I'm not sure I'm keen to embark on another Ship Shape and Bristol Fashion kind of exercise, which wasn't far short of 1 million words when I took a break from it. This was meant to be a palate cleanser until I could figure out how to bring SSBF to a proper conclusion. So I'll carry on with what I've planned and if you want to debate what butterflies might happen, feel free, but I'm not sure they'll impact this story line too much.
Allan.
Ah, the timeline snowball, made all the more... ball-ey (?) in wartime. It's good to keep things focused on the tanks of the British Army, you don't have any obligation to broaden the focus of the timeline to cover the whole war. If you like you could allude to knock-on effects in other theatres and services for the rest of us to nitpick over discuss at length between ourselves.
this is really interesting and I’m learning a lot from both your posts and some of the discussions. I particularly like how you identify the changes from otl.
Agreed, the simple technique of italicizing the passages that are directly altered from OTL is both clear and consistent, an excellent example I'm likely to steal for my own works, if I ever make any.
 
I am now wondering if there is further delay at Boulogne could a more comprehensive defence can now be thrown together allowing for a larger defensive position that allows both Calais and Dunkirk to be held as one large position?
 
I am now wondering if there is further delay at Boulogne could a more comprehensive defence can now be thrown together allowing for a larger defensive position that allows both Calais and Dunkirk to be held as one large position?
The other question is, how long will it now take to reduce Calais and Dunkirk? Every day allows the French army to recover and regroup to the south. Give them too long and they may even attack those still not-well held flanks...
 
24 May 1940. Calais. France.
24 May 1940. Calais. France.

Brigadier Nicholson looked across the table at his French counterpart and smiled. Commandant (Major) Raymond Le Tellier on hearing the various orders coming from Brownrigg in Dover, the War Office in London and the BEF HQ said, “les intentions des Britanniques, restées nébuleuses”. Nebulous was a perfectly good word to describe the situation. Since arriving the three British infantry Battalions and one Tank Battalion were meant to either go to the aid of Boulogne, or defend the canal crossings around St Omer, but ‘overriding all other considerations’, the order had come from the War Office the previous evening to organise a convoy to move 350000 rations to Dunkirk for the BEF, a decision forced because they had been ordered to go on half-rations to eke out what they had on hand.

One Section of 8th Bn RTR’s Light Tanks, with another section of Valiant Infantry Tanks Mark III following on at their best speed, set off in the early morning to escort the RASC convoy, along with a company of 1st Rifle Brigade, who’d ‘acquired’ enough transportation for themselves.

Lt-Col Winberg had also sent B Company 8th Bn RTR (12 A11s and 3 A12s), along with two companies of Queen Victoria Rifles to St Omer, where they came into contact with elements of 6th Panzer Division. The 58th Chemical Warfare Company, Royal Engineers, had been sent to demolish the main bridge over the canal to the east of the town. Discovering German reconnaissance elements already close by, the engineers pushed a truck-load of explosives on to the middle of the bridge under fire and there blew it up, but the bridge was not wholly destroyed. A platoon of 'Don Details', any odds and sods that could fire a rifle, and the engineers defending the bridge were gradually driven back. German troops occupied St Omer and began to form a bridgehead over the semi-demolished bridge.

The arrival of the British tanks and infantry in their rear took the Germans completely by surprise. Following ferocious fighting a Mixed Panzer Company supporting the Armoured Reconnaissance was put out of action. The fighting on the western side of the canal emboldened the British troops who had been pushed back. Reinforced by the arrival A Squadron 12th Lancers, (reduced to five armoured cars), a 25-pdr gun from 392nd Battery of 98th Field Regiment RA and a mixed company of men brought forward from Hazebrouck, these attacked and eventually forced the Germans who’d crossed the canal to surrender.

General Gort had for the past few days being setting up a serious of ad hoc forces to defend the Canal Line, while the main body of the BEF withdrew from the Escaut to the Gort Line. These diverse units were named for their commanders, such as Woodforce and Usherforce. The 12th Lancers, having done sterling work around Arras, were the lead element of the soon to arrive 50th Division, which had pulled out of Arras during the night of 23/24 May. They, along with 5th Division and the combined 4th/7th Bn RTR would be rested until they would be the British contribution to the attack planned for 26 May to reunite the seperated British and French forces.

The 392nd Battery, 98th Field Regiment, Royal Artillery had sent a single gun to each of the crossings at St Momelin, St Omer, Arques, Renescure, Wardrecques, Blaringhem and Wittes, each of these would provide direct gunfire in support of whatever scratch force was defending the crossings over the canal. With the canal line re-established, at least for the moment, the surviving Infantry Tanks were parcelled out to offer further support to the British and French forces along the canal.

B Company 8th Bn RTR’s Commanding officer had a look at the various German vehicles which his tanks had knocked out. He found both a Panzer III and IV whose crews had been killed by bits of the armour on the inside of the hull and turret spalling when hit by multiple HE shells from an A11’s pompom. After the terrible experience of getting their bodies removed, he discovered that both panzers were operational. A lot of talk had been going around about what the German panzers were like, and he thought someone ought to get the chance to look them over properly.


With this in mind, he organised a platoon of troops from the Queen Victoria Rifles, to escort the German prisoners, along with the two captured panzers, back to either Calais or Dunkirk via Gravelines. The panzers were manned by the surviving crews of a couple of the Infantry Tanks that had been badly damaged. He gave the crews orders to make a full report to Lt-Col Winberg, or whichever highest-ranking officer they found, about what had happened and suggested in the strongest terms, that the panzers should be loaded onto a ship and taken back to England where they could be studied in detail. The men of the Victoria Rifles decided not to be outdone, so they commandeered a number of other German vehicles that were still running, the half-track was a particular favourite, along with all sorts of enemy equipment, including machine pistols, MG34s, and mortars. Having left their own motorcycles behind in Dover, the men of the Queen Victoria Rifles delighted in taking into new ownership as many motorcycles and combinations as they could get to work. To prevent any misunderstanding all the German vehicles were decorated as best they could with Union Flags, and two armoured cars from 12th Lancers would ‘escort’ them.


For the convoy carrying rations from Calais to Dunkirk, the first sign of trouble was when on of the Mark VI Light Tanks probing ahead was destroyed by a mine. A platoon of 1st Rifle Brigade infantry deployed alongside two more Light Tanks to see what the problem was. The 8th Panzer Division had been moving up to the right of the 1st Panzer Division, and while the 1st Panzer Division had been held up by the French at Desvres, the 8th Panzers had advanced to Guines the previous evening, then moved up in the morning to look for a way over the canal into Dunkirk. B Company 8th RTR had been extremely lucky on their way to St Omer not to run into them.

The 8th Panzers had sent one Light Company of Panzer Is, IIs and IIIs to cut the road between Calais and Gravelines, to either find a crossing or support 1st Panzer’s attack on Calais by preventing an attack coming from Dunkirk. It was this Light Company, along with their attached infantry and anti-tank guns which the British convoy had run into the back of. The destruction of the Mark VI Light Tank had alerted the main force of Germans that the British were on the move behind them. The Germans had been concentrating on the crossings over the canal that were being held by elements of Usherforce. The 6th Green Howards and detachments of the 3rd Searchlight Regiment had so far held the bridges stopping the German advance.

The commander of the Section of Light Tanks passed back word for the three Valiants to come forward. Their 2-pdr guns and thick armour were going to be needed if the convoy was going to be able to break through the German roadblock. The Vickers Valiants had been chosen to escort the convoy because they would be far more capable of keeping up with the lorries than any of the other Infantry Tanks. The crews of the three tanks had been working with them at Farnborough, from which they had ‘liberated’ them, waiting at almost every moment for some officer to decide that Britain’s newest tank had no place on a battlefield without having been fully evaluated and prepared for active service. Forming an arrow head formation, with two platoons of infantry following closely in lorries, the three Valiants roared into battle. The Germans, with their focus on the canal at Gravelines had made their usual all-round defence preparations, and if only the Light Tanks were involved in this British charge, would have been seen off in jig time. The Germans learned once again that their 37mm anti-tank guns were ineffective against British Infantry Tanks. The fact that the British tanks were also proceeding up the road at 20mph and closing the gap with them quickly put them at an enormous disadvantage.


It was the co-axial machine guns that did most of the damage to the Germans, the 2-pdr gun with its amour piercing shot was kept for the panzers that had reversed themselves at the approach of the British. Much cursing from the gunners accompanied the problem of firing on the move, while under fire. This, they were discovering, was a very different experience from a training ground where buying drinks in the mess was the only penalty for a poor score. With the two Mark VI Light Tanks following the Infantry Tanks and the infantry in their lorries, their machine guns were able to widen the gap forced by the Infantry Tanks. Sections of infantry dismounted at various points to lay down fire, their Bren guns offering protection to the flanks.

The RASC officer in charge of the main part of the convoy seeing that the tanks had won their way through to the bridge over the canal ordered the lorries to move as quickly as the could through the carnage. Some of them were hit, and the lorry behind them would be forced to push it off the road and keep going. As the last remaining lorries crossed the bridge, the Rifle Brigade infantry disengaged and made for the bridge as best they could. The Valiants and Mark VI Light Tanks had formed a semi-circular protective position around the bridge to cover until the RASC convoy had crossed. Another Mark VI was destroyed, but while all three Valiants had been hit multiple times, they continued to be serviceable.

The Green Howards covered the Rifle Brigade men as they crossed the bridge, and finally the three Valiants reversed over it, keeping their thickest armour towards the enemy. Palls of smoke rose from German panzers and British lorries, bodies of both nations lay dead and wounded. The firing died down as both sides drew breath and tried to work out what to do next.

NB Text in italic differs from OTL. The blowing up of the bridge at St Omer happened OTL on 22 May, and by 23 May was a serious breach of the Canal Line.
The Calais-Dunkirk convoy never set off, light tanks from 3 RTR went ahead in the morning to scout and were destroyed or pulled back, along with the Rifle Brigade infantry into Calais. The attack into the rear of the 6th Panzers obviously never happened either, the 3 RTR cruisers that set off ran into German columns and lost heavily, also withdrawing back to Calais.
The capture of a Panzer III and IV is an important butterfly. Part of the British problem after Dunkirk was that the panzers had done all they had done and what exactly they were had never been properly discovered. The Pz IV is often described at the time as the 35 ton monster, it was ten tons less than that. Capturing the tanks, and a number of prisoners and equipment will play a part in a) dispelling some of the myths and b) giving the British a real understanding of German tactics.
If you want to have the
Ride of the Valkyries in your mind at the 3 Valiants forcing their way to the bridge, don't let me stop you (other tunes are available). That is their baptism of fire, and that's all I'm going to say about that. 3 A12 Matilda IIs would probably have been just as effective, though slower, but the 3 RTR was the only battalion of the RTR equipped with cruisers.
 
With this in mind, he organised a platoon of troops from the Queen Victoria Rifles, to escort the German prisoners, along with the two captured panzers, back to either Calais or Dunkirk via Gravelines. The panzers were manned by the surviving crews of a couple of the Infantry Tanks that had been badly damaged. He gave the crews orders to make a full report to Lt-Col Winberg, or whichever highest-ranking officer they found, about what had happened and suggested in the strongest terms, that the panzers should be loaded onto a ship and taken back to England where they could be studied in detail. The men of the Victoria Rifles decided not to be outdone, so they commandeered a number of other German vehicles that were still running, the half-track was a particular favourite, along with all sorts of enemy equipment, including machine pistols, MG34s, and mortars. Having left their own motorcycles behind in Dover, the men of the Queen Victoria Rifles delighted in taking into new ownership as many motorcycles and combinations as they could get to work. To prevent any misunderstanding all the German vehicles were decorated as best they could with Union Flags, and two armoured cars from 12th Lancers would ‘escort’ them.

ROFLMAO...have any of y'all ever read about the 83d US Infantry Division during the drive toward Berlin in 1945? They became known as the Rag Tag Circus and had continued to put captured equipment to work where they were as mobile as an armored division!!! Love the initiative that the Victoria Rifles have taken!!!!
 
Talk about butterflies! Getting all that German equipment will help the British get a measure of their enemies, and it sounds like the Germans are losing significantly larger amounts of materiel than OTL. That latter point could go a few ways IMO:
1) The losses mean the Germans don't have the forces to significantly reinforce the Italians in North Africa.
Or
2) The Germans realise they need to buck up their ideas, and move to round-the-clock production earlier than OTL.

As for not letting the Valiants be captured, if you drive them down into the sea (past their fording depth) at low tide, then disable them, the Germans will have a hell of a time even getting them out.
 
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This timelines STEN may be a simplified MP38 rather than a grossly simplified MP28 for a start. The captured Halftrack may generate interest as well.
 

NotBigBrother

Monthly Donor
This was meant to be a palate cleanser until I could figure out how to bring SSBF to a proper conclusion.
I can imagine a gathering of the last original BG members in Alt-1982, where they try to understand, was the so different world they remember real or they are suffering dementia already?
 
If you want to have the Ride of the Valkyries in your mind at the 3 Valiants forcing their way to the bridge, don't let me stop you (other tunes are available).
I had the refrain from The Great Escape, actually, since it's a little more on the nose than something like Hearts of Oak. Fantastic showing from the Valiants, I appreciate the detail that the MGs were most useful on the charge instead of the cannons. The After Action Reports are likely to have some disparaging comments about the doctrine of firing on the move.

Bagging the panzers is a huge win for the BEF, it's going to really set the bar for future designs coming from the tank boffins. That the captures were made on tanks knocked out from HE spalling might accelerate the adoption of the 6pdr for the Valiant with a good mix of AP and HE rounds.
I dearly hope the lessons in ergonomics taken from the 3 and 4, both of which have a reputation for having a very efficient internal layout and being the nicest tanks of the war to actually be in, will make the upcoming Victor a real beauty to its crews.
 
The After Action Reports are likely to have some disparaging comments about the doctrine of firing on the move.
If they realise it doesn't actually work in a tank going faster than walking pace, they might be more open to dropping it.

Bagging the panzers is a huge win for the BEF, it's going to really set the bar for future designs coming from the tank boffins. That the captures were made on tanks knocked out from HE spalling might accelerate the adoption of the 6pdr for the Valiant with a good mix of AP and HE rounds.
That, and might start a line of research into ways to reduce spalling, which would be a good thing.

I dearly hope the lessons in ergonomics taken from the 3 and 4, both of which have a reputation for having a very efficient internal layout and being the nicest tanks of the war to actually be in, will make the upcoming Victor a real beauty to its crews.
That will be important in the future. However, having the commander sitting to the rear of the gun is something I don't think will be taken up. Nor, I imagine, will be making the bow machine-gunner (where he exists), the radio operator.

For reference, these are Nicholas Moran's takes on the vehicles
Panzer III:


Panzer IV:


 
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I seem to recall a certain British tank outfit returning from the Iraq war with considerably more armour than they'd left with..

"Can I keep it. Sarge? It followed me home..."
 
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This timelines STEN may be a simplified MP38 rather than a grossly simplified MP28 for a start. The captured Halftrack may generate interest as well.
Same magazine wasn't it?

That was the weak point on the STEN design, certainly a weak point in the MP38 and 40

Although if they got the same version as used by Richard Burton and Clint Eastward in "Where Eagles Dare" then that would be a massive advantage as the troops would never need to reload ;)
 
Same magazine wasn't it?

That was the weak point on the STEN design, certainly a weak point in the MP38 and 40

Although if they got the same version as used by Richard Burton and Clint Eastward in "Where Eagles Dare" then that would be a massive advantage as the troops would never need to reload ;)
That’s the Delux version only for Hollywood stars turned Allied operatives.
 
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