Ship formation in slightly larger Force Z

Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
Hi all

I've been working on a Malayan Campaign TL, partly because it interests me, and part having been inspired by others on the site. However I do lack some detailed knowledge, so I thought I'd ask a question and see what help comes

Assume Force Z has BB Prince of Wales, BC Repulse and now CA Exeter, along with CL Emerald and 6 Destroyers. What would be a reasonable sailing formation for them. Would either Emerald or Exeter lead, followed by flagship POW then Repulse, flanked by 3 destroyers either side?
 

Antiochus V

I can be of limited help (see the timeline in my signature it is in the early sections) - I did something similar. I slightly avoided the question on much detail by setting the action at night. Not sure what your plans are, but I opted to divide the ships into two groups.
 

Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
Well I could have the 2 cruisers and the extra 2 destroyers as a second, 'scouting' squadron but I always thought only 4 destroyers (and he had to send HMS Tenedos back due to low fuel) was far too few. I think the 4 US destroyers of DesDiv 58 were planned to join.

So I went with Exeter adding more firepower to the line of battle, and the light cruiser and 2 extra destroyers providing a better screen.

But would he (Adm Phillips) or any Admiral for that matter, lead with a CA first?
 

Antiochus V

If at night one group is the decoy to let the others get to the invasion convoy, at least that was the plan in my timeline.

One of the problems the British faced was the distance was hard to cover quickly enough from Singapore, cruisers would have been better from that point of view.
 

jsb

Antiochus V said:
One of the problems the British faced was the distance was hard to cover quickly enough from Singapore, cruisers would have been better from that point of view.
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Would the speed change make any difference from BC at 28/29Kn to CA/Ls at 31/32 ? Would the DDs not run out of fuel running at that speed the whole way anyway?

Fatboy Coxy said:
What would be a reasonable sailing formation for them.
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Would they not go with the DDs in the front as a ASW line with the rest boxed safely behind them in the centre, moving to an ant air formation (or more likely disorganized mess spreading out after each attack) once aircraft are spotted?
 

Antiochus V

jsb said:
Would the speed change make any difference from BC at 28/29Kn to CA/Ls at 31/32 ? Would the DDs not run out of fuel running at that speed the whole way anyway?

Would they not go with the DDs in the front as a ASW line with the rest boxed safely behind them in the centre, moving to an ant air formation (or more likely disorganized mess spreading out after each attack) once aircraft are spotted?
Click to expand...

The cruisers might have made it - a wiser man than me would have to tell you which destroyers could manage the distance at speed
 

Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
A handicap Adm Phillips had was there were no light cruisers available, at that time. With a bit more foresight planning, in a new TL he could have some un modified C and D class, which could have kept a better speed, but wouldn't have afforded any anti submarine protection. I guess with a higher speed, and a submarine commander possibly struggling to ID a ship as light cruiser or destroyer with a quick periscope sweep, that might have sufficed.
 

HMS Warspite

Fatboy Coxy said:
A handicap Adm Phillips had was there were no light cruisers available, at that time. With a bit more foresight planning, in a new TL he could have some un modified C and D class, which could have kept a better speed, but wouldn't have afforded any anti submarine protection. I guess with a higher speed, and a submarine commander possibly struggling to ID a ship as light cruiser or destroyer with a quick periscope sweep, that might have sufficed.
Click to expand...

Cruisers were not the main issue, it was the lack of both airpower in the general region as well as shortage of destroyers, that were both of better quality than the veteran WW1 ones present, as well as longer ranged ones. HMS Tenedos had to withdraw after only two days sailing, due to her depleting fuelsupply, while HMAS Vampire was hardly doing better.

Most logical was to have the wntire Force X not stationed in Singapore in the first place, though while it was there, it was lacking all sorts of support and equipment. (Like faulty ammunitions for the 2pdr guns in these humid tropical conditions and insufficient climatisation on the flagship, which was unhealthy hot internally in the tropical sun.)
 

Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
You see, this is the problem when you contemplate writing a TL, Hindsight!. We all know what's coming, but did they then, is it reasonable to think they could have planned with a little more fore-sight. Churchill thought they were going to be an un-used deterrent, and provided they weren't tested, that was fine. But as the place quickens, as the Washington talks falter and break down, so Phillips has to make the deterrent into a more worthy force in a short timeframe. He flies to Manila to charm Adm Hart into lending him 4 destroyers, that are not much better than those he has in Hong Kong.

And as we move closer to war, Japanese transport convoy sailing, then contact lost, so he finds himself in the unenviable position of having to do something, and with the Empire looking on, he can only sail north.
 

Zheng He

Can you add USS Houston or USS Boise to the force?

Have Boise in Singapore with four of the old destroyers at the start of the fighting.
 

Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
HMS Warspite said:
Cruisers were not the main issue, it was the lack of both airpower in the general region as well as shortage of destroyers, that were both of better quality than the veteran WW1 ones present, as well as longer ranged ones. HMS Tenedos had to withdraw after only two days sailing, due to her depleting fuel supply, while HMAS Vampire was hardly doing better.
Click to expand...

I guess what I was suggesting was at a higher speed, or in a poorer sea state, the old C and D class cruisers could keep station longer than the Destroyers. Nevertheless, I am surprised Tenedos had to drop out so early. Do you think the other destroyers were being refuelled by POW, and Tenedos couldn't be?
 

Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
Zheng He said:
Can you add USS Houston or USS Boise to the force?

Have Boise in Singapore with four of the old destroyers at the start of the fighting.
Click to expand...

Not sure what state of readiness they were at, and where exactly they were.

I'm sure there had been previous discussions between the RN staff in Singapore and USN staff in Manila about mutual support. Adm Hart was quite receptive, but the higher US command didn't want to take on any commitments to defending an 'Empire' problem.

The real support was the Dutch, with the Australians supporting them.

We could have HNLMS Java and De Ruyter join. But would again have to been planned some time ago.
 

Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
jsb said:
Would they not go with the DDs in the front as a ASW line with the rest boxed safely behind them in the centre, moving to an ant air formation (or more likely disorganized mess spreading out after each attack) once aircraft are spotted?
Click to expand...

I've read that the Japanese mod of ops for Carriers under air attack, was for all ships to spread out, allowing each the maximum wriggle room, as the manouver around the falling bombs. Conversely the US Carrier's brought everone in to increase the AA cover over the carriers, and presumably for the escorts, take one for the team, re a torpedo heading for a Carrier.

However, a Battleship would put up a lot more AA, and maybe they wouldn't try to do that. I don't know what the RN did, looking at the pictures of the sinking of both the POW and Repulse, the destroyer escorts do look a long way off, so maybe 'wriggle room' it was.
 

Zheng He

Fatboy Coxy said:
Not sure what state of readiness they were at, and where exactly they were.

I'm sure there had been previous discussions between the RN staff in Singapore and USN staff in Manila about mutual support. Adm Hart was quite receptive, but the higher US command didn't want to take on any commitments to defending an 'Empire' problem.

The real support was the Dutch, with the Australians supporting them.

We could have HNLMS Java and De Ruyter join. But would again have to been planned some time ago.
Click to expand...

Boise was at Cebu and Houston was at Panay and as soon as the war started, they along with other elements of the Asiatic Fleet sailed for Darwin pickup merchant ships for escort.
 

HMS Warspite

In general Force Z was a makeshift emergency grouping of all sorts of ships, that could be spared from other duties, so no wonders were expected here. The only crucial missing element was the absence of HMS Indomitable, as that vessel had been suggested as an integral part of the taskforce. At the time the Royal Navy hardly could spare ships at all due to the wareffort in Europe, unless severely weakening other strategic assets.

Force Z was the result of one man in particular: Winston Churchill, who acted against the advisors of the Admiralty in stationing the powerful (on paper at least) group of ships in Singapore, while the Admiralty suggested the force to be stationed with the rest of the Eastern Fleet in Colombo, further away from Indo-China, but more acting as a Fleet in Beeing, rather than an tempting target within striking range of the Japanese, who were already showing signs of planning an invassion of Malaya. This resulted in Force Z already doomed before it got in Singapore. Old fashioned 19th century gunboat policy played in 1941 basically did not work, as well as the discriminating posture of the West in general opposed to the in their eyes inferior Japanese, who were surprisingly better equipped than expected.
 
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Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
Re-reading the posts, I never asked about whether the formation would change at night. Would say the Exeter lead, with her radar on?
 

HMS Warspite

Fatboy Coxy said:
Re-reading the posts, I never asked about whether the formation would change at night. Would say the Exeter lead, with her radar on?
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Why HMS Exeter? HMS Prince of Wales had more sets, besodes more advanced ones.
HMS Prince of Wales:
  • Type 279 radar.
  • Radar added between June–July 1941.

HMS Exeter:
  • Type 279 radar. (2 sets)
 

Peg Leg Pom

You don't have a Battleship out in front anyway. That's part of the role Cruisers were built for. In the absence of a carrier they, and their scout planes are your scouting force. The destroyers are your escorts while the Capital ships are the punch.
 
Logan2879

Logan2879

@Fatboy Coxy a formation for Force Z would be two lines of ships with destroyers leading. In real time, the only two modern cruisers available were heavy cruiser HMS Exeter and HMS Mauritius. HMS Exeter was covering a convoy to Singapore but could have arrived by December 6, while HMS Mauritius was in Singapore getting repairs on her engine. Other cruisers were available but in order to be with Force Z, they had to be in good shape. HMS Glasgow was in the Bay of Bengals but she had her after turrets X and Y out of service due to damages she had in the Mediterranean. HMS Danae and HMS Durban were in Singapore but had poor anti-aircraft protection and were no use for Admiral Phillip. HMS Dragon was patrolling off the Adamans Islands and was in the same case as her two other sisters.
Now destroyers were available but some were in repairs. HMS Encounter, HMS Jupiter, HMS Iris were in repairs in Singapore, which could have join Force Z. Another three destroyers under repair were HMS Ilex in Durban and HMS Nubian in Bombay and HMS Kelly (I think) also in Bombay. Now having this six destroyers ready with Force Z and the three modern cruisers, Force Z would be a battle fleet. Also add the 4 American destroyers and USS Marblehead and then you got yourself a scout and battle fleet.
 
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