Seven Days to the River Rhine: the Third World War - a TL

[mattep74]

Even if Sweden and Finland was not active in the war as you say they will feel effects of it. Leningrad was hit by a nuke and it is close to Finland and it has a Chernobyl power plant. Finland could get a big dose of radiation.

If Copenhagen was hit by a nuke then Malmö in Sweden is no near that it will get some damage. And the fallout from Poland, Germany and Norway will get to Sweden. Most of Skåne and Blekinge, prime farm fields will get so much radiation that crops will fail for years

 

[Lalli]

Even if Sweden and Finland was not active in the war as you say they will feel effects of it. Leningrad was hit by a nuke and it is close to Finland and it has a Chernobyl power plant. Finland could get a big dose of radiation.

If Copenhagen was hit by a nuke then Malmö in Sweden is no near that it will get some damage. And the fallout from Poland, Germany and Norway will get to Sweden. Most of Skåne and Blekinge, prime farm fields will get so much radiation that crops will fail for years

Very true. And despite nuclear Winter being only just ratherly nuclear Autumn, things are really hard for Finland and Sweden. Both are pretty dependent on foreign trade what is mostly cut off for years and not even fossil fuels. Even if there is not outright crop failures there is going to be really weak crops anyway.

 

[Helaena I Targaryen]

While I wholeheartedly agree that the GOP would become extinct as a political party, I'm curious if Reagan and any of his surviving cabinet would be arrested and then subject to a Nuremberg tribunal...followed by a short drop and a sudden stop.

Given the barbarism of post-WW3, such a thing would be more revenge and to appease the survivors.

Absolutely not. Reagan did everything he could've and should've done, besides being confrontational with the USSR. However, that is not illegal, it was quite popular with the American people, and in any case it was the USSR who started the whole mess in the first place.

 

[Lalli]

Absolutely not. Reagan did everything he could've and should've done, besides being confrontational with the USSR. However, that is not illegal, it was quite popular with the American people, and in any case it was the USSR who started the whole mess in the first place.

Agree. If someone have to be trialed and hanged it is Gang of Eight. They outright begun invasion due their own paranoia and stupidity and refused all negotiations what Reagan and Thatcher offered. They couldn't even become to their sense when first nuclear weapons explosed. Them had lot of chances to make peace if they just would had realised this going too far. Dam it, even leaders of neutral nations, pope and UN called too peace. But they just decided risk existence of known civilisation and even lives of hundreds of millions their own citizens whom them had meant to protect. Not sure if they survived but if so I hope that they lived long enough to see what they have done and perhaps even face wrath of their citizens.

 

[Kalga]

In terms of blame and how it's placed it's interesting to note that when talking about the american school system (OTL) and their zero tolerance policy, it's easy to get the crowd to buy into the theory that bullies would often bait their victims to lash out, and thus claim the moral high ground to the audience (teachers & school admins). Like dude this is the generic backstory of school shooters (at least in the late 2000s when they weren't that common).

For a more relevant geopolitical comparison there's still people excusing the nazis starting WWII by blaming the treaty of versailles, or Japan was all but forced to attack pearl harbor due to the US's embargo of scrap iron and oil (I mean, not often around here, but common enough on places like reddit or whatnot).

Of course the question is who's interest would it be to push for such a narrative ITTL?

 

[Blue cat]

While I wholeheartedly agree that the GOP would become extinct as a political party, I'm curious if Reagan and any of his surviving cabinet would be arrested and then subject to a Nuremberg tribunal...followed by a short drop and a sudden stop.

Given the barbarism of post-WW3, such a thing would be more revenge and to appease the survivors.

That seems extremely unlikely to me. I can't imagine what crimes they could have been charged with and in any event I suspect the US would have had other more pressing matters to deal with post WW3. In so far as at least some vestiges of the US Govt seems to have survived in this fictional time line and the US may still be a nuclear power of some sort I'm doubtful another nation would manage to get their hands on them (or even be inclined to try) in this fictional time line.

From having lived thru the later part of the cold war I don't believe the actions of Reagan and his cabinet as outlined in this fictional thread would have been considered a crime but thankfully we didn't get to find out.

 

[rfmcdonald]

That seems extremely unlikely to me. I can't imagine what crimes they could have been charged with and in any event I suspect the US would have had other more pressing matters to deal with post WW3. In so far as at least some vestiges of the US Govt seems to have survived in this fictional time line and the US may still be a nuclear power of some sort I'm doubtful another nation would manage to get their hands on them (or even be inclined to try) in this fictional time line.

From having lived thru the later part of the cold war I don't believe the actions of Reagan and his cabinet as outlined in this fictional thread would have been considered a crime but thankfully we didn't get to find out.

I would also note that the whole post-WW2 infrastructure of international law that could have led to the prosecution of government leaders for this war is gone. The new world order, meanwhile, is dominated by countries that have better things to do with their limited resources than getting into conflicts with former combatants.

 

[Whiteshore]

Agree. If someone have to be trialed and hanged it is Gang of Eight. They outright begun invasion due their own paranoia and stupidity and refused all negotiations what Reagan and Thatcher offered. They couldn't even become to their sense when first nuclear weapons explosed. Them had lot of chances to make peace if they just would had realised this going too far. Dam it, even leaders of neutral nations, pope and UN called too peace. But they just decided risk existence of known civilisation and even lives of hundreds of millions their own citizens whom them had meant to protect. Not sure if they survived but if so I hope that they lived long enough to see what they have done and perhaps even face wrath of their citizens.

Considering Russia is run by someone who's main complaint IOTL about Putin's regime was that it was too moderate, I wouldn't be surprised if the Gang of Eight didn't have a nice fate.

 

[rfmcdonald]

People may want to move, but if they cannot find ways to leave they may be stuck. North America north of the Rio Grande has a vast landscape only tenuously united by infrastructure and cities that are now destroyed. How can someone in Montana or Michigan make it to Mexico in these conditions?

Things will be different as the US rebuilds, when this sort of infrastructure is restored. International migration will become greater in volume over time, ignoring whatever initial refugee surge we might have.

As for language its likely that English and French fall off as it loses its prestige but also as teachers are harder to replace leading to the return of the original language or a new language being born from the union between native and European languages.

English and French, though, had their advantages in these multiethnic and multilingual post-colonial societies because they were ethnically neutral languages. If anything, much as how Brexit has arguably helped the English language in Europe by eliminating the language's connection with a powerful member-state, the disappearance of Anglophone and Francophone world powers might just as easily give English and French added security. Who would fear the US or France? That these countries all have extensive governments, media, and educational establishments working in the ex-colonial language is also big.

 

[rfmcdonald]

My point stands, although it is true that the US economy depends on sex tourism. That is not to say that a person can take care of themselves, especially since food is expensive. Condoms would be expensive and possibly scarce, there are other clear methods.

You can simply withdraw in the absence of condoms. Beyond that, I am just home abortions were take off again.

Also, I am referring to communities outside the control of the government. That they are the majority, the USA at this moment does not have total control of the country.

I think that expecting rural America, before the war a rich, high-tech, and deeply globalized region, to revert wholly to the 18th century may be unrealistic.

One more thing: North America will have an AIDS pandemic as bad as southern Africa's OTL if not worse, with no safer sex, hundreds of thousands of infected people outside the bombed areas, lots of migration and survival sex, and no treatments.

 

[Gillan1220]

What is the state of radio and television broadcasting in this TL? Would it be somewhat limited?
Whatever happened to the former presidents as of 1983: Nixon, Ford, and Carter? Would there be a Secret Service contingency plan to evacuate them to a secure location? I would assume they would play a leading role in national reconstruction in America.

TV would be limited. So most survivors would use CB or Ham Radios.

Give or take if Nixon, Ford, and Carter survived. In 1983: Doomsday, Carter survived but Nixon and Ford were presumed killed.

I wonder too if Jackie Kennedy and JFK Jr. survived as well. I know they would have try to flee New York City by the time Able Archer tensions occurred. Heck, even JFK Jr. might survive past his OTL death and run for a governor of New York here.

Absolutely not. Reagan did everything he could've and should've done, besides being confrontational with the USSR. However, that is not illegal, it was quite popular with the American people, and in any case it was the USSR who started the whole mess in the first place.

From the views of the Free World, Reagan, Thatcher, Kohl, and Mitterand stood up to Soviet aggression. This is 1983 where the Soviets were considered the "Evil Empire". The view of such were strengthened due to KAL 007.

Agree. If someone have to be trialed and hanged it is Gang of Eight. They outright begun invasion due their own paranoia and stupidity and refused all negotiations what Reagan and Thatcher offered. They couldn't even become to their sense when first nuclear weapons explosed. Them had lot of chances to make peace if they just would had realised this going too far. Dam it, even leaders of neutral nations, pope and UN called too peace. But they just decided risk existence of known civilisation and even lives of hundreds of millions their own citizens whom them had meant to protect. Not sure if they survived but if so I hope that they lived long enough to see what they have done and perhaps even face wrath of their citizens.

Underline points:
1. Yes, the Gang of Eight wanted something favorable on their terms. Something that the West were suspicious that the Gang of Eight would surely violate in the future. No one wants another version of the Molotov-Ribbetrop pact or even the appeasement of 1938.
2. They wanted peace that will benefit the USSR as a whole. Which included a neutral Germany.
3. It got crazy to the point that North Korea and Zaire under the dictator Mobutu of all countries tried to mediate peace between both parties! Only for North Korea to lose credibility once more as it invaded the South when the dust settled.

US may still be a nuclear power of some sort I'm doubtful another nation would manage to get their hands on them (or even be inclined to try) in this fictional time line.

There would be surviving nuclear plants, some weapons in storage, unlaunched SLMBs from surviving Ohio-class subs, or even nuclear depth charges in aircraft carriers. Maybe a handful of B-61 nuclear bombs in Europe also survived. There were still U.S. nuclear weapons in South Korea as well since these were only removed in 1991 IOTL.

 

[Miguel Demiurgos]

That's why my comparison is more like a modern African country in the middle of a civil war.

With the AIDS pandemic in the United States, AIDS can change from being an lgbt disease to one more... how to say it well, without that stigma.

Migration will be big in the early days, with everyone trying to get to Mexico in the first few years. Then it calms down and it's just a little trickle for the next few years. After another decade perhaps it will come back strong and constant.

 

[TerenceofGod]

It genuinely would not matter who is to blame, history( not manicured history) would likely find it difficult to place moral high ground for anyone since this Nuclear Sabre rattling existed since the 60s and was coined Cold War.

The world is too busy putting itself back together to care. There will be 3 distinct time-frames for it, the Cold War, 7 day war, Cold Peace.

 

[comrade cat]

Agree. If someone have to be trialed and hanged it is Gang of Eight. They outright begun invasion due their own paranoia and stupidity and refused all negotiations what Reagan and Thatcher offered. They couldn't even become to their sense when first nuclear weapons explosed. Them had lot of chances to make peace if they just would had realised this going too far. Dam it, even leaders of neutral nations, pope and UN called too peace. But they just decided risk existence of known civilisation and even lives of hundreds of millions their own citizens whom them had meant to protect. Not sure if they survived but if so I hope that they lived long enough to see what they have done and perhaps even face wrath of their citizens.

Speaking about the gang of eight, what happened to them? Did their underground complex got destroyed in the nuclear inferno, or they survived initially? Because it has been established here that Reagan and the Mt. Cheyenne complex survived direct nuclear strike.

 

[Rhododendron]

I wanna see what happens in Australia.
Also Threads was a cool mockumentary and I recommend it to anyone in this thread.

A cool mockumentary? I was born a few years before this TL began, in a major Western target city, so could have been taken out. I was only a small child at the time, so can't remember the superpower tensions, but it's not funnyI
Even in the 1990s, after the "end" of the cold war, I vaguely remember secondary school geography textbooks that referenced a possible future nuclear no-go zone, in Northern Ireland, perhaps other places.

We studied Brother in the Land by Robert Swindells, a disturbing childrens' book about a nuclear attack on an area of northern England. Think I have accidentally seen some clips of Threads on televison, not sure I could stand viewing the whole thing.
I did see Terminator 2 (one of our weekend films at boarding school). The scene where they show all the cars on the LA freeway (in daylight), horrified me, I somehow thought the Terminator would maybe emerge out of the back of a car, but no. The next scene was dark, post-apocalyptic, all the vehicles were burnt out. Then there's the scene where you see a childrens' playground just before the nuclear firewall overwhelms everything. I could say more, but don't want to overdo it or stray into detailing current politics. Interesting, well-written timeline. But quite chilling for me, anyway.

 

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

A lot of countries dependent on agricultural exports are going to make a whole lot of money as without the West many countries are going to have to find others to get their food from. I can see countries like Brazil, Argentina, Australia, and New Zealand making a lot of money.

 

[skarosianlifeform]

What happened in Korea ?

 

[Gillan1220]

What happened in Korea ?

Seoul was nuked. North Korea was somehow spared? and later launches an invasion to irradiated South Korea that quickly loses steam because the KPA no longer has their Soviet and Chinese backers.

 

[rfmcdonald]

That's why my comparison is more like a modern African country in the middle of a civil war.

I think that South Africa would be the best comparison.

Migration will be big in the early days, with everyone trying to get to Mexico in the first few years. Then it calms down and it's just a little trickle for the next few years. After another decade perhaps it will come back strong and constant.

Something like that might be possible.

 

[Miguel Demiurgos]

How about an enormous African country, with several heavily armed guerrilla groups that exert control over large areas of the country?