Spain ITTL vibes here, but I do suspect that conservatives will be in a power from time to time. In general, the debate will about run of the mill liberalism and Radicalism.
Sequel de Mayo (Cinco de Mayo, Vol. II)
- Thread starter KingSweden24
- Start date
I thought he was appointed by Hearst in 1909?
William O. Douglas - Wikipedia
Brandeis was appointed by Hearst in 1910 - he just won’t be Chief
Ohhh him! I have no plans to put him on SCOTUS. May be more interesting as a politician or Treasury Secretary, tbhOTL was appointed in 1939. Was considered to be FDR VP (more accurately next president) in 1944. Lasted until 1975 and is the longest serving justice on the courtWilliam O. Douglas - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
So Taft dies, possibly, a little bit earlier than OTL.
Probaably not by much though...
This has been great stuff! I'm interested to see where the timeline goes once the wars are out of the way; I generally feel that the changes you see in peacetime are often more interesting than the alternate conflicts, so I'm very excited to see post-war America (north and south) take shape.
Seeing Roscoe Pound turn up was a treat; I never felt I figured out a good way to use him in The Prairie Capital, but war crimes prosecutor and (eventual) Supreme Court Justice seems like it fits him well. I am going to chose to believe that he still fired that cannon into the University hog shed in this timeline.
I am curious about American artistic civic culture going forward. I was reading a book about Gutzon Borglum recently, and it struck me just how much of early twentieth century American art was just a few sculptors fighting over commissions to Lincoln memorials. Are there any figures that monopolize public monuments ITTL? On the other hand, are public statues more diverse in content (or just more abstract?)
Seeing Roscoe Pound turn up was a treat; I never felt I figured out a good way to use him in The Prairie Capital, but war crimes prosecutor and (eventual) Supreme Court Justice seems like it fits him well. I am going to chose to believe that he still fired that cannon into the University hog shed in this timeline.
I am curious about American artistic civic culture going forward. I was reading a book about Gutzon Borglum recently, and it struck me just how much of early twentieth century American art was just a few sculptors fighting over commissions to Lincoln memorials. Are there any figures that monopolize public monuments ITTL? On the other hand, are public statues more diverse in content (or just more abstract?)
Indeed lol. This is more progressive USA, but not to that extent
I had him dying on schedule, which puts him on pace to die before Pershing comes along
Thank you! Pound is an interesting character that I def wanted to make some kind of use of.
I don't know enough about sculpture to really comment, but I do find that darkly hilarious (and spot on from what I've read of the period) that it was a couple of dudes just carving Lincoln everywhere, lol. I'd say since GAW is a much more traumatic experience for the US than our WW1, you'd probably see more abstract work, sort of like 1920s Europe trying to process their trauma. Great question!
God I love this country. Feels like something like that could only happen here.
Between Two Chiles
"...necessity of victory before winter fell in Chile's frigid south. The rapid collapse of Surista positions since the fall of Los Angeles in the early spring had helped, however, and the overwhelming advantage in light artillery and aerial firepower finally tipped the scale; Alessandri was warned by Altamirano that a siege of Puerto Montt, even with the Suristas severely limited, would be an ugly affair, likely lasting weeks and with the enemy fighting to the last man.
It was indeed worse than that; after the rapid advance from October to December through southern Chile inspiring government forces (particularly after their seizure of Valdivia on Christmas Day), fighting got bogged down in the teeth of resistance in the most dedicated of Surista territory, the country of itinerant preachers, several churches per town, and deep superstitions that blended pre-Christian beliefs with the most dogmatic Catholicism anywhere in the Southern Cone. The terrain west and south of Valdivia lent itself to difficult fighting even at the head of summer, but by late January the Army was moving, its supply lines even longer than before but supported by resources through Valdivia by sea, on towards Puerto Montt, clearing every town house by house. This was the ugliest stage of the Civil War; Bartolome Blanche, later a major figure in the Socialist Republic's "Red Juntas," [1], described in his diaries as a brigade commander in those hard months what can charitably be described as scorched earth campaigning, less charitably as gruesome war crimes. Towns were burned to the ground as crops and livestock were confiscated; on at least three occasions on the road to Puerto Montt, Blanche witnessed but did nothing to interrupt cases where women and children were ushered into churches that were subsequently burned to the ground, after witnessing all the men and boys over the age of twelve killed in the town square, bludgeoned or bayoneted to save bullets and powder.
Puerto Montt's landside defenses were finally invested in early February, after which followed not a few weeks of siege but rather over three months, with the city not falling until May 20. Aldunate pointedly refused entreaties to evacuate his men by sea - "evacuate where?" he asked incredulously - and surrender for many Suristas was not an option, so convinced were they that they were fighting a holy war against a barbaric, godless enemy. Planes bombarded the city every day with dynamite and other crude mining explosives, or strafed defensive trenches, but nonetheless the Suristas held on doggedly against the Colorado forces. Altamirano, after two failed offensives in mid-March had failed to breach the trenches, instead elected to starve the city's defenders and civilians out, focusing huge attention on destroying the city's docks to make it impossible to bring food ashore from the fishing villages dotting the fjords of southern Chile and sinking vessels that passed into the Seno de Reloncavi, after capturing high ground near Colaco that gave his planes total domination over the Chacao Channel and Sea of Chiloe. Inside the city, public order began to rapidly deteriorate as salted fish ran out and whatever meat was left was prioritized for defenders; by late May, people were eating shoe leather, mice, and dirt to stay full, and when the city eventually collapsed of hunger, it was an exhausted, grim populace who were surrendering to Altamirano, not dogged resistance fighters.
How violent the fall of Puerto Montt actually was is debatable in Chile even today; Patria y Libertad commanders made it an article of faith for decades that thousands were slaughtered wholesale, including crucifixions and beheadings. This is highly doubtful, and not just considering the source; even Blanche, who kept meticulous records of his colleagues' depravity in the south of Chile, described Puerto Montt's collapse as remarkably civilized compared to some of what he had seen just months earlier. The besiegers were decently fed and by May had become very comfortable lobbing artillery and dropping bombs rather than attacking, and there was little frustration to take out; Surista leaders like Silvestre Ochagavia and Francisco Valdes, when captured, were quickly condemned and executed by firing squad on the beaches of the Seno de Reloncavi in proceedings best described as extrajudicial, but soldiers by all accounts were given the first bread and dried meat they'd tasted in weeks. Narratives, it turn out, are much more powerful to a conquered people than the truth.
The Civil War effectively ended May 20-21st at Puerto Montt, in no small part because Aldunate, in the end, did evacuate - in a small dinghy under cover of night, then by packmule over the Andes as winter started to set in and thereafter smuggled in a barrel from Chubut to Brazil, and from then on to Havana, where he lived in destitution for several years until he began receiving a generous, anonymous stipend to live more comfortably in a second-story apartment a few blocks off the city's famed Prado. His presence was quiet, only occasionally joining other right-wing Chilean exiles for dinner; upon the imposition of the Socialist Republic in 1924, his company in Cuba became much more liberal in flavor, though he often shunned men whom he knew to have been Alessandrists. He commented seldom on Chilean politics publicly or in published writing, but he did compile extensive diaries and memoirs that were published posthumously following his death of stroke in 1931. A rallying figure for the Chilean far-right, he was not; but an important figure in Chilean postwar history, he was, as his hour ended in the south in 1918.
The defeat at Puerto Montt meant that, with the exception of scattered guerilla bands in the southern Andes and on Chiloe Island, the war was over, and the soldiers could begin to return home. Alessandri was ecstatic - his Radical Republic had, at last, triumphed over a dogged enemy that at the outset of the war had enjoyed considerable public support, especially in the rural south. The program to reintegrate the whole of the country was still to come - schools built, churches repaired, roads paved - but first there was a time to take a deep breath and rejoice, because as Chile had discovered repeatedly since its fateful decision to dispatch ships to Chimbote Bay in September 1913, one never knew how long such relaxed breaths would last..."
- Between Two Chiles
[1] If you're reading between the lines and deciphering that between Grove and Blanche the Socialist Republic will have a very military flavor, you're correct.
It was indeed worse than that; after the rapid advance from October to December through southern Chile inspiring government forces (particularly after their seizure of Valdivia on Christmas Day), fighting got bogged down in the teeth of resistance in the most dedicated of Surista territory, the country of itinerant preachers, several churches per town, and deep superstitions that blended pre-Christian beliefs with the most dogmatic Catholicism anywhere in the Southern Cone. The terrain west and south of Valdivia lent itself to difficult fighting even at the head of summer, but by late January the Army was moving, its supply lines even longer than before but supported by resources through Valdivia by sea, on towards Puerto Montt, clearing every town house by house. This was the ugliest stage of the Civil War; Bartolome Blanche, later a major figure in the Socialist Republic's "Red Juntas," [1], described in his diaries as a brigade commander in those hard months what can charitably be described as scorched earth campaigning, less charitably as gruesome war crimes. Towns were burned to the ground as crops and livestock were confiscated; on at least three occasions on the road to Puerto Montt, Blanche witnessed but did nothing to interrupt cases where women and children were ushered into churches that were subsequently burned to the ground, after witnessing all the men and boys over the age of twelve killed in the town square, bludgeoned or bayoneted to save bullets and powder.
Puerto Montt's landside defenses were finally invested in early February, after which followed not a few weeks of siege but rather over three months, with the city not falling until May 20. Aldunate pointedly refused entreaties to evacuate his men by sea - "evacuate where?" he asked incredulously - and surrender for many Suristas was not an option, so convinced were they that they were fighting a holy war against a barbaric, godless enemy. Planes bombarded the city every day with dynamite and other crude mining explosives, or strafed defensive trenches, but nonetheless the Suristas held on doggedly against the Colorado forces. Altamirano, after two failed offensives in mid-March had failed to breach the trenches, instead elected to starve the city's defenders and civilians out, focusing huge attention on destroying the city's docks to make it impossible to bring food ashore from the fishing villages dotting the fjords of southern Chile and sinking vessels that passed into the Seno de Reloncavi, after capturing high ground near Colaco that gave his planes total domination over the Chacao Channel and Sea of Chiloe. Inside the city, public order began to rapidly deteriorate as salted fish ran out and whatever meat was left was prioritized for defenders; by late May, people were eating shoe leather, mice, and dirt to stay full, and when the city eventually collapsed of hunger, it was an exhausted, grim populace who were surrendering to Altamirano, not dogged resistance fighters.
How violent the fall of Puerto Montt actually was is debatable in Chile even today; Patria y Libertad commanders made it an article of faith for decades that thousands were slaughtered wholesale, including crucifixions and beheadings. This is highly doubtful, and not just considering the source; even Blanche, who kept meticulous records of his colleagues' depravity in the south of Chile, described Puerto Montt's collapse as remarkably civilized compared to some of what he had seen just months earlier. The besiegers were decently fed and by May had become very comfortable lobbing artillery and dropping bombs rather than attacking, and there was little frustration to take out; Surista leaders like Silvestre Ochagavia and Francisco Valdes, when captured, were quickly condemned and executed by firing squad on the beaches of the Seno de Reloncavi in proceedings best described as extrajudicial, but soldiers by all accounts were given the first bread and dried meat they'd tasted in weeks. Narratives, it turn out, are much more powerful to a conquered people than the truth.
The Civil War effectively ended May 20-21st at Puerto Montt, in no small part because Aldunate, in the end, did evacuate - in a small dinghy under cover of night, then by packmule over the Andes as winter started to set in and thereafter smuggled in a barrel from Chubut to Brazil, and from then on to Havana, where he lived in destitution for several years until he began receiving a generous, anonymous stipend to live more comfortably in a second-story apartment a few blocks off the city's famed Prado. His presence was quiet, only occasionally joining other right-wing Chilean exiles for dinner; upon the imposition of the Socialist Republic in 1924, his company in Cuba became much more liberal in flavor, though he often shunned men whom he knew to have been Alessandrists. He commented seldom on Chilean politics publicly or in published writing, but he did compile extensive diaries and memoirs that were published posthumously following his death of stroke in 1931. A rallying figure for the Chilean far-right, he was not; but an important figure in Chilean postwar history, he was, as his hour ended in the south in 1918.
The defeat at Puerto Montt meant that, with the exception of scattered guerilla bands in the southern Andes and on Chiloe Island, the war was over, and the soldiers could begin to return home. Alessandri was ecstatic - his Radical Republic had, at last, triumphed over a dogged enemy that at the outset of the war had enjoyed considerable public support, especially in the rural south. The program to reintegrate the whole of the country was still to come - schools built, churches repaired, roads paved - but first there was a time to take a deep breath and rejoice, because as Chile had discovered repeatedly since its fateful decision to dispatch ships to Chimbote Bay in September 1913, one never knew how long such relaxed breaths would last..."
- Between Two Chiles
[1] If you're reading between the lines and deciphering that between Grove and Blanche the Socialist Republic will have a very military flavor, you're correct.
A little confused here. The last Chile update that I remember basically had three factions. In the far north socialist (almost OTL communists) in the areas where the Bolivians and Peruvians had taken over, a "moderate" group in Santiago that surrendered to the Americans and Argentines and the Conservatives in the south. Is the group that won the war the first group or the second group?
You’re not remembering wrong. The second group is the winner, that first group is a gaggle of Socialist worker’s councils in mining towns across the North, who very critically have not raised arms against the Alessandri Republic in Santiago
OK, so at this point, we haven't even gotten to Violent Socialist Revolutions. Boring.
Boring, but, correct.OK, so at this point, we haven't even gotten to Violent Socialist Revolutions. Boring.
Well, not to much to report there at the moment, seeing as how he’s under an imposed regency
It will be interesting based on when he passes as to see which Heads of State attend the funeral.
USA? CSA? Brazil? Argentina? Chile? anyone in Europe (note if he dies during the CEW, I expect few European Monarchs other than the Spanish. OTOH, if it is before the CEW, you *might* have another last chance before war meeting, like Niagara.
ATL proposal ("Would Spain have joined the CEW if the French submarine *hadn't* sunk the boat that the Spanish King was returning to Spain in)
Would both unconfortably cohabitate until 1924? or is Alessandri going to try to bring them to heel either peacefully or by force?
A update about the passing of the Government of Ireland Act in Britain or the passage of the "Gunbarrel Amendments" in the CSA would be nice.
Or perhaps a Huey Long update that you have teasing about recently.
That’s an interesting point actuallyIt will be interesting based on when he passes as to see which Heads of State attend the funeral.
USA? CSA? Brazil? Argentina? Chile? anyone in Europe (note if he dies during the CEW, I expect few European Monarchs other than the Spanish. OTOH, if it is before the CEW, you *might* have another last chance before war meeting, like Niagara.
ATL proposal ("Would Spain have joined the CEW if the French submarine *hadn't* sunk the boat that the Spanish King was returning to Spain in)
They can cohabitate for a while, but definitely not until 1924, and Alessandri is termed out in 1922… and his party is definitely more than a little personalist
All in the pipeline for 1918, just need to find the time to write bigger longer updates
