Secular Spain = Potential For Technological Advancement

Religious freedom would help with preventing the brain drain
Not exactly : Jewish expulsion could potentially have been (I mean, if Christian Spaniards were unable to think) , but it didn't had a real impact on Spain, and Moriscos population usually involved lower class and specialized peasantry. Not a brain drain (that is so definitively a contemporary feature).

But do democracies necessarily help aid the progress of science and technology?
Not necessarily, or rather no more than a non-democracy that have as well interest to develop itself.

I mean, how could the Spanish government and monarchy be able to foster the growth of these two areas besides ordering that to happen (and I mean not stalling that progress)?
Basically with the right motivation : the technological advance in maritime technological knowledge (both material and immaterial) clearly gave them the edge on interncontinental trade and colonisation in the XVIth for exemple.

Can the institutions still be changed for the better? Or will that require a Glorious Revolution-type scenario?
Early Bourbon France is a good exemple on how you can have an increasingly absolutist institution, just recovering from decades of war and civil wars, and managing to get in front of world powers on this regard.

Give me any nation that had this thing happening and was able to make scientific and technological progress?
China.
 
How else can Spain to maintain and continue to develop their technological edge so that it doesn't get elapsed by Britain? Could a possible earlier Industrial Revolution and the inventions that came with it be possibly happening? Besides resources why else was Britain able to stay ahead of the game and become the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution?
 
Last edited:
How else can Spain to maintain and continue to develop their technological edge so that it doesn't get elapsed by Britain?
Not wasting its ressources away in both Europe and Americas. Basically, limiting its ambitions.

That said, doing so would be risking to give too much rooms to its rivals.
For France, you should either reach a compromise peace with Italian Wars, or having a crushing final victory against it, which ever allow a quicker peace at least for a time.
You'd argue that the OTL peace freed Spain from French pressure, especially with Wars of Religion. True. But that simply costed a lot to have this result that may have been better used elsewhere.

Not antagonizing England too soon as well (especially when an agreement of sort was ongoing with Henry VII) would most certainly help for similar reasons.

If it's possible, try to have relaxed relations with both of them, and convincing them to go against Turks in order to not be the only one dealing with and bearing the financial burden (or at the very least preventing Francis I to troll his way around)

No Reformation would probably be necessary. It would be doable to still have such and to have Spain less focused about it, but giving we're talking of a country with a messianic complex since the Reconquista...
But if you do have Reformation, then no bankrupt because of Italian Wars would really help to pay troops, not having them mutinate and plunder their way in Netherlands, and manage to have actual negociations between Felipe II and Dutch. (With a possibility to came back later to definitely crush Calvinism, Louis XIV-style).

In Americas, again, limit its ambitions and being less successful. Limitating its domination to Mexico for exemple, and treating Peru a bit like Portugal considered Maroc or Kongo.

Could a possible earlier Industrial Revolution and the inventions that came with it be possibly happening?
Industrial Revolution isn't something only waiting to be selected on the Technology Menu. :)

It would require a favourable context.
(Furthermore, you may need more of an industrialisation, rather than a process as in Britain that may be too brutal for Spanish structures).

Basically it would call for a stable economy (which would still have issues due to european inflation, which may be due to introduction of precious metal), a stable agrarian situation (no expulsion of Moriscos, or at the very least, making it so gradually), more inter-european trade (no antagonizing everyone in sight because of a Superman complex would help) would it be only for accumulating capital (it may ask for a renewal of Meditteranean trade to avoid counting too much on Netherlands), maintain of Mediterranean plantation economy (meaning less focus on colonies)...

There's probably more features necessary that I forgot.

Besides resources why else was Britain able to stay ahead of the game and become the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution?
Accumulation of capital trough trade and inter-connected production, technological progress issued from the previous centuries, total disregard for societal safety as long it meant increase of profit for social elites (that were more turned on trade and profit than landed continental elites), etc.

It may be safer for Spain to follow something akin to the French model of industrialisation : slower, without real "take-off", less risky socially.
 
Last edited:
I think that you are underestimating the expulsion of the religious minorities as one of the main reasons of the Spanish decadence. Surely, considering a short period of time, Jews were not economically relevant to Spain at the time of the Alhambra's Decree (i.e. there was no significant brain or capital drain). However, as I see, the long term consequences were enormous: the deepening of a hidalgo culture and the development of the Inquisition was an important constraint to scientific and economic progress.

In a nutshell, Spanish Siglo de Oro is known for the development of Literature, Painting, Architecture, etc, whereas the Dutch Gouden Eeuw included an undeniable progress to technology and human sciences (Spinoza, Grotius, Descartes, Huygens, etc.).

Max Weber indicated works ethics as the main explanation for this shift of power from the Mediterranean Catholic powers to the Protestant Northern nations. I see it a partially valid explanation, not based on religion itself, but on the combination of international and internal conjuncture. i.e. Demographic problems due to immigration to America, pointless wars in Europe; as Catilina said, Spain was also a victim of an overextension that prevented the country to develop into a modern society.

A good POD would be to have a urban élite dominating the country, that is to say, we need to make Lisbon the centre of the empire. This could be done before the marriage Reyes católicos, during the Castillan Succession War. A Portuguese-Castillan Union would "possibly" avoid the expulsion of the minorities and a creation of a Pan-European Habsburg Empire; Spain would be a "real" merchant empire, just like England. i.e. not as aristocratic as Spain or France and not as small as Portugal or the Netherlands.

The other POD which I have in mind is the transfer of the court to Lisbon during Phillip II reign. To have the political center and commercial center in the same place could change the Webberian "work ethics" inside the Empire. On one hand, we can counter-argue that by saying that Portugal marched to the same decadence. On the other, as said, Portugal - as the Netherlands - is way too small to be valid example to the development of a big country as Spain (To be clear, I'm here assuming that Spain equals Castille).

Finally, to avoid overextension, avoid Italy, the Netherlands, Germany, the Ottomans, etc. Avoid Habsbourg's problems. An English-like (or Portuguese-like) isolation would be the best to the Spanish to create a better system of exploration of its overseas possetions.
 
However, as I see, the long term consequences were enormous: the deepening of a hidalgo culture and the development of the Inquisition was an important constraint to scientific and economic progress.
I've yet to see the Inquisitorial impact on these grounds. While the societal impact was certainly important (but most definitely tended to lower, even during the XVIIth century), I've still to remember occurence of what was basically an heresy-hunting institution (and being quite serious about it, disregarding matters that didn't explicitly included it) on matters of technological and economical nature.

In a nutshell, Spanish Siglo de Oro is known for the development of Literature, Painting, Architecture, etc, whereas the Dutch Gouden Eeuw included an undeniable progress to technology and human sciences (Spinoza, Grotius, Descartes, Huygens, etc.).
Indeed. Is known, because culturally, both tended to focus on different matters.
But it should be noted that XVI/XVIIth Spain relied heavily on Italian and German cultural/technical structures, and that these (would it be only because Italy was included within Spanish sphere of influence and the close Habsburg relations) should be taken in account as well.

As for human sciences, the School of Salamanca (for economics, but as well moralism) have essentially the flaw of being less known due being set in a country deemed "backwards" than being really inferior.
The influence of Vesalio on Spanish medicine and biology was quite noticeable, and these disciplines hardly minor, with Amusco as an example.
Or the engineering development (partially tied up with the renewed exploitations of mines in the peninsula and in Americas)

It's interesting to notice that most of the scientific and technical occurrences there happened during the reign of Felipe's II, whom action in these matters is often bluntly ignored to fit some sort of "black legend" remake : is Beaumont's obscurity is more due to the insignificance of his steam powered water pump, with Hiero's toy being more technically relevant? Or couldn't we see, at least partially, a certain bias from technological historians?

That his successors, notably, were content about living on past acquisitions and developments, certainly harmed the whole scientific/societal development but if it was really a problem of hidalgo culture, it should have happened at least one century before.
It may be wiser to look at the reverse : after Felipe II, Spain is loosing its edge and dominance, and being in deep denial, Spanish elites simply let themselves slide. Basically, because Spain was declining, its elites stopped to be dynamics, which only deepened the decline.

Having a Spain more victorious in Europe would certainly prevent at least partially this attitude to me.

Max Weber indicated works ethics as the main explanation for this shift of power from the Mediterranean Catholic powers to the Protestant Northern nations.
It was exceedingly debated, mostly considering the predominance of same works ethics in late Middle-Ages Netherlands, Catalonia or Italy.

A good POD would be to have a urban élite dominating the country, that is to say, we need to make Lisbon the centre of the empire.
I would point that such elite existed in Spain, namely in coastal Aragon, since the Middle-Ages.
While its decline was partially due to the late independent Aragon situation, it knew a certain growth with the unification both from Mediterranean trade (which could be at least partially maintained with a more important anti-Ottoman coalition) and local production. In the XVIth century, its wealth was comparable to North Italy, Portugal and second only in Spain to Flanders.

But the economic crisis of the late XVIth century, the policies of Charles V and Felipe II, and the growing importance of Americas certainly harmed its position. Tough, it was still salvageable, at the likeness of Italian city-states that while declining, remained dominant in Mediterranean trade up to the XVIIth century.
A strong enough Spain would have little trouble maintaining Catalan maritime dominance, in my opinion.

A Portuguese-Castillan Union would "possibly" avoid the expulsion of the minorities
Actually, it would make it even more likely, especially for Moriscos. They were particularly present in Valencian country where they represented an economically important taskforce for the agricultural and planter part of the Valencian economy.
Their expulsion there was certainly more harming than it was in other regions of Spain.

Which bring me to the above point : a more reliant Spain on Catalonia and Valencian *could* (we're talking of a cultural feature there, so let's not be hasty) at least adopt a more gradual expulsion model would it be only because of the increased political importance of who depended on them.

Finally, to avoid overextension, avoid Italy, the Netherlands, Germany, the Ottomans, etc.
Even without Habsburgs, these problems would remain, especially in Mediterranean basin. French or Ottoman takeover there would mean loosing necessary trade partners and strategically important regions.
As for Netherlands, having them is at the contrary what could help Spain to compensate a lesser holding in Americas.

Rather than not intervening, which would be at least to prevent the big blue blob and the gigantic green gathering to be able to take on a more wealthy Spain. Would it be only geopolitically, isolation would be a very bad idea.
 
I think that you are underestimating the expulsion of the religious minorities as one of the main reasons of the Spanish decadence. Surely, considering a short period of time, Jews were not economically relevant to Spain at the time of the Alhambra's Decree (i.e. there was no significant brain or capital drain). However, as I see, the long term consequences were enormous: the deepening of a hidalgo culture and the development of the Inquisition was an important constraint to scientific and economic progress.

In a nutshell, Spanish Siglo de Oro is known for the development of Literature, Painting, Architecture, etc, whereas the Dutch Gouden Eeuw included an undeniable progress to technology and human sciences (Spinoza, Grotius, Descartes, Huygens, etc.).

Max Weber indicated works ethics as the main explanation for this shift of power from the Mediterranean Catholic powers to the Protestant Northern nations. I see it a partially valid explanation, not based on religion itself, but on the combination of international and internal conjuncture. i.e. Demographic problems due to immigration to America, pointless wars in Europe; as Catilina said, Spain was also a victim of an overextension that prevented the country to develop into a modern society.

A good POD would be to have a urban élite dominating the country, that is to say, we need to make Lisbon the centre of the empire. This could be done before the marriage Reyes católicos, during the Castillan Succession War. A Portuguese-Castillan Union would "possibly" avoid the expulsion of the minorities and a creation of a Pan-European Habsburg Empire; Spain would be a "real" merchant empire, just like England. i.e. not as aristocratic as Spain or France and not as small as Portugal or the Netherlands.

The other POD which I have in mind is the transfer of the court to Lisbon during Phillip II reign. To have the political center and commercial center in the same place could change the Webberian "work ethics" inside the Empire. On one hand, we can counter-argue that by saying that Portugal marched to the same decadence. On the other, as said, Portugal - as the Netherlands - is way too small to be valid example to the development of a big country as Spain (To be clear, I'm here assuming that Spain equals Castille).

Finally, to avoid overextension, avoid Italy, the Netherlands, Germany, the Ottomans, etc. Avoid Habsbourg's problems. An English-like (or Portuguese-like) isolation would be the best to the Spanish to create a better system of exploration of its overseas possetions.

We could somehow change the mindsets of the OTL leaders to be more Reformation-leaning and run Spain's economy akin to Portugal's policies. How that is done will lead to huge butterflies.

Maybe if Spain and France tried to form an alliance or end hostilities it could take off pressure from Spain to not get so much in conflicts in Europe. No Hapsburgs in Spain could allow France to be more powerful, on the other hand.
 
I've yet to see the Inquisitorial impact on these grounds. While the societal impact was certainly important (but most definitely tended to lower, even during the XVIIth century), I've still to remember occurence of what was basically an heresy-hunting institution (and being quite serious about it, disregarding matters that didn't explicitly included it) on matters of technological and economical nature.

It's true that I base myself pretty much on a commonplace regarding the Inquisition. But, well, given all the other contemporary economic happenings (i.e. American Silver, etc.) a study that correlates Counter-Reform and economics is impossible.

Nonetheless, given the positions of the Church regarding scientific innovation (being Geocentrism the classic example) and the censorship systematically promoted by the Inquisition (the Spanish even had their own Index Librorum Prohibitorum) I tend to believe that Inquisition was not really good to science. Needless to say that the Spanish didn't only block "heretical" literature but scientifical literature as well. Catholic Mediterraneans didn't have the same access to Scientific, Philosophic, Religious literature that the Protestant from the north had. If there was (or not) a relation with economic development in a short term it's not clear, however, it surely affected them culturally and thus economically in a long term.


Indeed. Is known, because culturally, both tended to focus on different matters.
But it should be noted that XVI/XVIIth Spain relied heavily on Italian and German cultural/technical structures, and that these (would it be only because Italy was included within Spanish sphere of influence and the close Habsburg relations) should be taken in account as well.

As for human sciences, the School of Salamanca (for economics, but as well moralism) have essentially the flaw of being less known due being set in a country deemed "backwards" than being really inferior.
The influence of Vesalio on Spanish medicine and biology was quite noticeable, and these disciplines hardly minor, with Amusco as an example.
Or the engineering development (partially tied up with the renewed exploitations of mines in the peninsula and in Americas)

You're right. There was some scientific development inside Inquisitorial Spain. The thing is all of it was pretty much controlled (or overseen) by the Church. The Valladolid debate, for instance, did not question any serious Catholic principle. On the other hand, e.g., Grotius took its ideas about natural law from the jurists of Salamanca and was a part of the Calvinist-Arminian debate; Not to mention that Spinoza was banned from his own Jewish community. Well, I thik that if these dutchmen were Spaniards they would have been burnt at a stake.

I would point that such elite existed in Spain, namely in coastal Aragon, since the Middle-Ages.
While its decline was partially due to the late independent Aragon situation, it knew a certain growth with the unification both from Mediterranean trade (which could be at least partially maintained with a more important anti-Ottoman coalition) and local production. In the XVIth century, its wealth was comparable to North Italy, Portugal and second only in Spain to Flanders.

My point is that in Spain the political and economic power are very distant from each other. Indeed, we have a proto-bourgeoisie in Sevilla and in Barcelona. But, the court is still in Toledo/Madrid. All the other Western European nations have important commercial centers as the capital (London, Paris, Lisbon, Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Stockholm, etc.). As I see a court that lives in a bucolic place far way from the economic heart of the nation tends to misunderstand the real problems of the country and, as we all know, Habsbourg Spain government is pretty much a lesson of how not to rule a kingdom.

I think that changing the seat of the government to a real urban center would be the best to change the hidalgo mentality (Lisbon is the best choise as a gate to the Americas).

Actually, it would make it even more likely, especially for Moriscos. They were particularly present in Valencian country where they represented an economically important taskforce for the agricultural and planter part of the Valencian economy.
Their expulsion there was certainly more harming than it was in other regions of Spain.

I base myself on the fact that historically Portugal was much more open to the Jewish people if compared to Spain.

Even without Habsburgs, these problems would remain, especially in Mediterranean basin. French or Ottoman takeover there would mean loosing necessary trade partners and strategically important regions.
As for Netherlands, having them is at the contrary what could help Spain to compensate a lesser holding in Americas.

Rather than not intervening, which would be at least to prevent the big blue blob and the gigantic green gathering to be able to take on a more wealthy Spain. Would it be only geopolitically, isolation would be a very bad idea.

You're true about Italy and the Ottomans if we consider that TTL's Spain has Aragon. However, the Netherlands was the one biggest mistake of Spain. It's true that Burgundian possesions dropped into Spanish lap, but all the process of fighting and the issues to access the Dutch (and German) markets had a disastrous effect in Spain (this and the lack of American Silver...).

If we have a Castillan-Portuguese Union as I said, they could benefit from the isolation regarding the Mediterranean, profit from the Portuguese feitoria in the Netherlands and control the Americas and the East Indies. An explosive combination to the creation of a mercantile society, non?
 
(...)

You're true about Italy and the Ottomans if we consider that TTL's Spain has Aragon. However, the Netherlands was the one biggest mistake of Spain. It's true that Burgundian possesions dropped into Spanish lap, but all the process of fighting and the issues to access the Dutch (and German) markets had a disastrous effect in Spain (this and the lack of American Silver...).

If we have a Castillan-Portuguese Union as I said, they could benefit from the isolation regarding the Mediterranean, profit from the Portuguese feitoria in the Netherlands and control the Americas and the East Indies. An explosive combination to the creation of a mercantile society, non?

Actually the Spanish kingdoms fell into the lap of Habsburg-Burgundy, not to mention that the Burgundian possessions were one of the most valuable European possessions of the Habsburgs. Structurally the taxes were thrice as high as in Naples & Sicily, which had a comparable population; fixed period subsidies were even twice as high as granted by the kingdom of Castille (1 2/3 the population of the Netherlands). In short the Habsburg-Burgundian Netherlands were very wealthy and thus valuable.
However the Habsburg possessions might have been divided a bit different, even when having a Spanish and an Austrian branch, just have the Austrian branch have the Burgundian possessions.

So keeping it made sense, but a compromise between the Dutch elite and their liege, who also happens to be king of Castille, Aragon etc. They could always come back 'Louis XIV'-style as suggested. Heck even their Austrian Habsburg cousins had more patience.
 
Last edited:
Some very interesting things learned here!

As an aside to the early query on "thesaurus".
It originally meant "treasure hoard*" and is where we get the english word "treasure" from.

*thence it's current use by Roget for their "hoard of words"
 
Spain did had a middle class, merchant, and proto-industrial base back then. But the Inquisition and the persecution of Jews and Moriscos changed all of that. However, I am stumped on how to butterfly the Inquisition. Maybe have Ferdinand and Isabelle be aware of the economical importance of them and allow religious tolerance (with discriminating policies as a way to pressure them to convert) or be smart and try to expand on their merchant and proto-industrial bases. But how to change their mindsets will mean a lot.
 
Spain did had a middle class, merchant, and proto-industrial base back then. But the Inquisition and the persecution of Jews and Moriscos changed all of that. However, I am stumped on how to butterfly the Inquisition. Maybe have Ferdinand and Isabelle be aware of the economical importance of them and allow religious tolerance (with discriminating policies as a way to pressure them to convert) or be smart and try to expand on their merchant and proto-industrial bases. But how to change their mindsets will mean a lot.



As bad as Inquisition was, I can't follow your cause-consequence logic. A big hit for cadtilian bourgeoisie was the defeat of the cities against the high nobility and the imperials during the Wsr of the Comunidades. It also determined the geopolitical strategy in the centuries to come, aswell as commercial-productive policies that were one of the reasons behind the conflict, like sthe preference by the high nobility with their powerful sepherers cartel, La Mesta and norther cities to export the castilian whool to Flanders while neglecting the local textile industry. Other policies, caused by the overstreched geopolitical aims (as LSCatilina explained) where also very negative, like Philip II riuning Sevilla's financial class to pay his debts. There alsonother problems, related to orography and ecology...for example, spanish internal waterways and mountains are not the better to create commercial networks with decentralized nodes like in certain parts of northern Europe, and droughts are a cyclical phenomenon. Of course, the Inquistion didn't help to scietiphic development, though their censorship was not that efficient and it was used more as a tool of political terror rather than religious rigor (you fear more the Inquisition than the sin, it was used to say) and certainly it hit very badly the spanish thriving erasmist circle. But they were far less important one century latter.

As LSCatilina explained, the expulsion of the moriscos was specially painful in rural Valencia, where they were used as cheap workforce by big landlords, not in the cities. In fact, during the valencian urban uprising akin to the castilian comunidades, the Germanias, moriscos were regularly targeted by the burgers (something that didn't happen in Castile, though through the clientelar network they helped, after hesitation, to put down the revolt in Andalusia)

So, there is a lot of causes behind the problems of Spain. The Inquisition, being a tool of the Modern State to impose its political and cultural hegemony and homogeneity has a more complex role...
 
As bad as Inquisition was, I can't follow your cause-consequence logic. A big hit for cadtilian bourgeoisie was the defeat of the cities against the high nobility and the imperials during the Wsr of the Comunidades. It also determined the geopolitical strategy in the centuries to come, aswell as commercial-productive policies that were one of the reasons behind the conflict, like sthe preference by the high nobility with their powerful sepherers cartel, La Mesta and norther cities to export the castilian whool to Flanders while neglecting the local textile industry. Other policies, caused by the overstreched geopolitical aims (as LSCatilina explained) where also very negative, like Philip II riuning Sevilla's financial class to pay his debts. There alsonother problems, related to orography and ecology...for example, spanish internal waterways and mountains are not the better to create commercial networks with decentralized nodes like in certain parts of northern Europe, and droughts are a cyclical phenomenon. Of course, the Inquistion didn't help to scietiphic development, though their censorship was not that efficient and it was used more as a tool of political terror rather than religious rigor (you fear more the Inquisition than the sin, it was used to say) and certainly it hit very badly the spanish thriving erasmist circle. But they were far less important one century latter.

As LSCatilina explained, the expulsion of the moriscos was specially painful in rural Valencia, where they were used as cheap workforce by big landlords, not in the cities. In fact, during the valencian urban uprising akin to the castilian comunidades, the Germanias, moriscos were regularly targeted by the burgers (something that didn't happen in Castile, though through the clientelar network they helped, after hesitation, to put down the revolt in Andalusia)

So, there is a lot of causes behind the problems of Spain. The Inquisition, being a tool of the Modern State to impose its political and cultural hegemony and homogeneity has a more complex role...

I agree with most of your points, but I think that modern historiography tends to overlook the role of inquisition. Indeed, you can argue that their control was little effective, but, we cannot compare it with no censorship at all. I think that the clear example of the effects of censorship in a county is the USSR: we can surely have an underground samizdat culture, but the scientific/cultural "standards" are never at stake publicly (e.g. Lysenkoism). Of course, this is only related to science, not economics (at least in a short term).

The key, as you said, is the overextension of the empire and the fact that ALL internal and international policy of the Habsburgs was directly related to the fact that they were the "Champions" of Catholicism. More particulary, the conflict in the Netherlands could have been avoided. Spanish industry was overly dependent of the Dutch ports and, assuming that the Netherlands would inevitably enter the Protestant world, insistence on direct rule wasn't the best political choice; Phillip II could have left the Netherlands (and its problems) to his sister, for instance.
 
Top