Second American Civil War 1930s Discussion Original Title: Foreign Involvement in a Second American Civil War(1930s)

[General_Melchett]

I have found that my question didn’t have enough context to work with so until me and the boys(the community) figure this out, we are discussing different TLs and possible new TLs.

Original text:
After all my research I’ve done it seems a bit of a stretch that a war could break out. But let’s say some wacky shit has occurred and something like the Spanish Civil War has happened in the US. Not one to one but similar.

What sort of foreign involvement might you expect? Material aid, volunteers, even up to direct intervention?

Also, as a side question I personally enjoy reading about irregular and militia forces and their myriad of interesting names. If you’re feeling creative what are some militia/volunteer group names you think would be good?

 

[MrHappy]

Excuse me if my amateurishness is showing, I only intermittently participate in discussions at this site. Aren't such queries supposed to be prefaced with some basic background information: who, what, where, when, and why?

 

[Lalli]

Probably depends who are fighting each others and when exactly that civil war would be. Only ones are probably Britain/Canada and Mexico if they are worried enough of the war. Perhaps Japan too but that is not certain.

 

[General_Melchett]

Excuse me if my amateurishness is showing, I only intermittently participate in discussions at this site. Aren't such queries supposed to be prefaced with some basic background information: who, what, where, when, and why?

To be honest I’m pretty new to the site so may not be asking the right way. The question is pretty light on specific information, but I didn’t have a specific timeline in mind. I thought maybe the loose outline would be enough for people to fill in the rest.

If you or others would like something more specific the timeline “The Falcon Cannot Hear” by Ephraim Ben Raphael(posted here on this site) is pretty close to what I’m describing.

 

[Garrison]

Excuse me if my amateurishness is showing, I only intermittently participate in discussions at this site. Aren't such queries supposed to be prefaced with some basic background information: who, what, where, when, and why?

Indeed, without some clues as to how this happened, which probably requires changes going back to at least the First World War and thus radically changes the European situation in the 1930s.

 

[Garrison]

To be honest I’m pretty new to the site so may not be asking the right way. The question is pretty light on specific information, but I didn’t have a specific timeline in mind. I thought maybe the loose outline would be enough for people to fill in the rest.

Again it is usual for you to present your own ideas first, rather than just offer up a vague one sentence description.

 

[General_Melchett]

Probably depends who are fighting each others and when exactly that civil war would be. Only ones are probably Britain/Canada and Mexico if they are worried enough of the war. Perhaps Japan too but that is not certain.

From my understanding a Spanish civil war type war would involve basically the whole left of the political spectrum versus basically the whole right. Although in Spain the Nationalist were more cohesive but still.
Oh and like with Spain and Russia, infighting between supposed allies, because they all actually hate each other.

 

[General_Melchett]

Again it is usual for you to present your own ideas first, rather than just offer up a vague one sentence description.

I think a possible POD is miss management of the bonus army march on Washington. I believe in the timeline I mentioned Roosevelt gets assassinated which probably doesn’t help. I could be wrong though I’ve mostly read later parts tbh.

 

[Garrison]

I think a possible POD is miss management of the bonus army march on Washington. I believe in the timeline I mentioned Roosevelt gets assassinated which probably doesn’t help. I could be wrong though I’ve mostly read later parts tbh.

Not the bit where it was closed for plagiarism I assume.

 

[mack8]

This is a recent american civil war TL, for what is worth. A good base scenario to discuss the OP question.

For the Republic: A History of the Second American Civil War

Nice to see that even in the threat of total collapse of society, that politics will still be politics!

www.alternatehistory.com

 

[General_Melchett]

Not the bit where it was closed for plagiarism I assume.

No actually. Im just hearing that part. Geez I feel like I’m circling the drain in a job interview.

 

[General_Melchett]

This is a recent american civil war TL, for what is worth. A good base scenario to discuss the OP question.

For the Republic: A History of the Second American Civil War

Nice to see that even in the threat of total collapse of society, that politics will still be politics!

www.alternatehistory.com

Thanks. That looks like it will do.

 

[General_Melchett]

This is a recent american civil war TL, for what is worth. A good base scenario to discuss the OP question.

For the Republic: A History of the Second American Civil War

Nice to see that even in the threat of total collapse of society, that politics will still be politics!

www.alternatehistory.com

Would you mind giving a brief summary of the situation in this? Particularly the factions and leaders? For those unfamiliar(including myself) I’ve given it a few skims through, but I feel like I’m missing some important details.

 

[LoftonHenderson]

As I recall that one revolves around a military coup causing a civil war. I always found that implausible though it depends on the POD.

My sense is that a 2nd US Civil War POD would have to come sometime during WW1 -- possibly in which the US doesn't join the war, leading to either a CP victory or negotiated settlement of some kind, but importantly one in which the Entente is on the hook for all their US loans and Germany isn't footing any of their bill. If Britain and/or France default and cause an earlier, longer Great Depression, that would be prime ground for radicalism to grow. Add in a white russian victory minimizing the red scare, FDR dying of polio before his career takes off, the left-wing/labor movement being move cohesive, a more xenophobic dixiecrat-dominated democratic party, a few contested elections, and a progressive push for civil rights ... I think you could see some sort of new secessionist movement and a civil war between 2 or even more factions

 

[General_Melchett]

As I recall that one revolves around a military coup causing a civil war. I always found that implausible though it depends on the POD.

My sense is that a 2nd US Civil War POD would have to come sometime during WW1 -- possibly in which the US doesn't join the war, leading to either a CP victory or negotiated settlement of some kind, but importantly one in which the Entente is on the hook for all their US loans and Germany isn't footing any of their bill. If Britain and/or France default and cause an earlier, longer Great Depression, that would be prime ground for radicalism to grow. Add in a white russian victory minimizing the red scare, FDR dying of polio before his career takes off, the left-wing/labor movement being move cohesive, a more xenophobic dixiecrat-dominated democratic party, a few contested elections, and a progressive push for civil rights ... I think you could see some sort of new secessionist movement and a civil war between 2 or even more factions

That does sound sufficiently chaotic. One small quibble. FDR didn’t have polio. I think the consensus is that it was probably misdiagnosed Guillain-Barré syndrome. You could probably get him out of politics if Giuseppe Zangara had succeeded in his assassination attempt.

Beyond that, it sounds plausible enough given the state of things. And the before mentioned assassination would probably make things even worse.

 

[LoftonHenderson]

That does sound sufficiently chaotic. One small quibble. FDR didn’t have polio. I think the consensus is that it was probably misdiagnosed Guillain-Barré syndrome. You could probably get him out of politics if Giuseppe Zangara had succeeded in his assassination attempt.

Beyond that, it sounds plausible enough given the state of things. And the before mentioned assassination would probably make things even worse.

holy cow really??? that's wild. one of those "truisms" everyone knows that turns out to be false as new evidence comes to light

thanks for sharing, thats fascinating

 

[General_Melchett]

holy cow really??? that's wild. one of those "truisms" everyone knows that turns out to be false as new evidence comes to light

thanks for sharing, thats fascinating

No problem. It’s close enough that it’s not worth going out of your way to set the record straight. But for our purposes, small-ish details like that do matter.

I’m not sure how deadly GBS is compared to polio, but we can just sidestep that whole discussion with the assassination plot.

 

[mack8]

Would you mind giving a brief summary of the situation in this? Particularly the factions and leaders? For those unfamiliar(including myself) I’ve given it a few skims through, but I feel like I’m missing some important details.

I can't say i'm familiar with american political inner workings or their geography either. But the gist of it is a civil war splitting US in 4 camps, of which two are actually fighting eachother, the northeast is split between MacArthur leading a quasi-fascist regime fighting against the republicans led by some politician Smith which became president ITTL, while the southern states are under Huey Long and not involved. The remaining western US states are again not taking part in the fighting.

 

[General_Melchett]

I can't say i'm familiar with american political inner workings or their geography either. But the gist of it is a civil war splitting US in 4 camps, of which two are actually fighting eachother, the northeast is split between MacArthur leading a quasi-fascist regime fighting against the republicans led by some politician Smith which became president ITTL, while the southern states are under Huey Long and not involved. The remaining western US states are again not taking part in the fighting.

Thank you Mack! I did say something like the Spanish civil war and that sounds not toooo far from the mark*(it’s complicated yada yada). But I’d fancy more reds myself. It’s hard to imagine a 2ndACW without them.

If I’m able I may edit the title and initial post to make it more about figuring out the scenario first.

 

[General_Melchett]

Hello again! I’ve been sick the past few days and still feel like Scheiß, but whatever. Something I wanted to bring up was the potential messiness of a civil war. One example of this being the photo below. For example, Indiana has more Klansmen by population percentage than almost every southern state.

A contributing factor to the lower percentages would be black population that cuts straight through some of the most conservative parts of the county and home of the proto-Dixiecrats.

Then you have to consider the far left which could have a hold over cities in the most industrialized parts of but questionable influence beyond that.

The last thing I wanted ti touch on is Federal loyalists. In most scenarios you would expect them to be one of the biggest factions, but I think the most plausible way to get the war to occur at all is for people to lose faith in the federal government. So knowing what side somewhere like North Dakota would take is a bit difficult.

Anyway those are some of my thoughts. Hopefully this is coherent!