WI for whatever reason, the Scottish reformation fails to take hold, and Scotland remains overwhelmingly Catholic. How does this affect relations with England. Is Mary, QoS still deposed in favour of James VI? I assume that James cannot take the English throne in 1603 if he's still Catholic, but then who would Elizabeth's successor be? Could we see Scotland remain independent indefinitely if it is not subsumed into England?
Scotland remains Catholic
- Thread starter Aichi72
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Why does it fail to take hold?
Also, MQOS is not deposed if Scotland's Catholic.
Elizabeth would likely need to look to domestic candidates for successors
Also, MQOS is not deposed if Scotland's Catholic.
Elizabeth would likely need to look to domestic candidates for successors
I don't know enough about Scottish history to say. Maybe some of the major players of the Scottish reformation die early in the movement and no one else rises to take their place which leads to it just sort of petering out? Is that plausible?
Mary would likely still be shipped off to France but a surviving James could have sons....
So let's say that James V survives and has a son and strong Catholic leadership for a couple of generations in a crucial time manages to keep the overwhelming majority of Scotland Catholic. How might this affect the geopolitical situation of the British Isles? Is enmity between English and Scots even stronger now with an added religious element. How do you see the English succession change in this scenario (let's assume that Henry VIII and Edward VI still die on schedule and Mary still takes the throne after Edward's death)?
Mary, in the event that she is still childless, might insist that the hypothetical James VI be her heir, instead of Elizabeth.
Depending on how things go, there might be a full on religious war/succession war in England.
Maybe the Scottish Church does a better job of reforming itself in the 15th/early 16th centuries, meaning that Protestantism just doesn't get enough of a foothold.
Back to the OP, how would this affect the religious situation in England? The north of England was one of the most Catholic-heavy parts of the country IOTL, and I'd imagine this would be even more the case ITTL, with neighbouring Scotland able to act as a base for missionary activity. And with the Catholic James VI being heir (or at least a strong contender, even in the event that Elizabeth tries to pass over him), would we see a longer-lasting "Church papist" phenomenon, whereby people adhering to basically Catholic beliefs go along to their local Anglican service to avoid getting prosecuted? IOTL such people were a majority of the English population for the first couple of decades of Elizabeth's reign; ITTL, maybe their numbers remain high even afterwards, as large numbers of people expect England to return to Rome shortly?
Interesting effects on England. Could we see a civil, maybe Wars of the Roses 2.0 if the English succession stays the same and the Scots are in a good position to make a move? Also, does anyone know how the Reformation affected Scottish society at large, and what kind of changes, or lack of changes, would be associated with remaining Catholic? For some reason, I have always associated Scottish Catholicism with Highland clans, not sure why though.
a) Mary would NOT be shipped to France until both she and her husband are old enough for being married, b) a Mary with brothers is much less interesting for France and c) Mary is far likelier to marry Edward VI than Francis II in this scenario
I'm pretty sure that Mary was only sent to France so early because of the Rough Wooing which only happened because James V was dead and had no sons, so Mary should stay in Scotland much longer ITTL assuming James V lives.
Or dies of exhaustion as a French galley slave.
Also needed would be some form of repression early on to suppress lairds and the nobility from converting. Dispossessing them and giving their land to others may be a driver to making Catholicism for those who help dispossess them. Maybe James V having a negative encounter with a Protestant might motivate him to organise such persecutions.
By the 1550s it would probably be too late as by that time too many powerful nobles are Protestant.
twovultures
Donor
IIRC, the Scottish reformation was stronger in the Lowlands and many in the Highlands remained Catholic (hence why the Jacobites had such strong Highlander support).
I think that a Scotland that both remains Catholic and independent of England suggests a strong state built up by the Scottish counter-reformation. The Scottish crown seizing and redistributing the land of 'heretic' nobility has already been suggested in the thread. The establishment of some sort of Scottish inquisition lends itself to the crown developing internal intelligence and law-enforcement capability to stem potential rebellions before they become a serious challenge. And as good Catholic monarchs, the Scottish kings will be in a good position to bargain with the Vatican to take at least some Church land for themselves, or tax monasteries to help pay for this new state infrastructure.