Saving Japan's CVs after Midway

[Eternity]

So, I was thinking recently about the discovery of Kaga and Akagi.

Kaga, Akagi, Hiryu and Soryu were all scuttled at Midway so the USN left them floating and scuttling means they could in theory have floated much longer and been saved. Therefore.....

Theoretically, if America left the crippled ships alone, could any of them have actually been saved and returned (Towed) to Japan (Or Japanese territory) for salvage / repairs?

If so, and apart from the USN leaving the salvage operations alone, what else would need to go right for the IJN?

 

[GTStinger]

Have a B-26 strike the bridge of the Akagi and start a controllable deck fire that renders the ship incapable of flight operations.
Akagi is detached to the west with airborne craft landing on the other carriers.

 

[Eternity]

Have a B-26 strike the bridge of the Akagi and start a controllable deck fire that renders the ship incapable of flight operations.
Akagi is detached to the west with airborne craft landing on the other carriers.

Ok, but I was thinking more after the OTL Battle of Midway.

The carriers are all in their damaged condition as per OTL, after that and assuming the USN leaves them alone, can they be successfully salvaged?

 

[Johnrankins]

So, I was thinking recently about the discovery of Kaga and Akagi.

Kaga, Akagi, Hiryu and Soryu were all scuttled at Midway so the USN left them floating and scuttling means they could in theory have floated much longer and been saved. Therefore.....

Theoretically, if America left the crippled ships alone, could any of them have actually been saved and returned (Towed) to Japan (Or Japanese territory) for salvage / repairs?

If so, and apart from the USN leaving the salvage operations alone, what else would need to go right for the IJN?

A more realistic scenario is to have the IJN fleet less damaged and the USN somewhat more. Maybe only the Kaga and Akagi are lost while the USN still loses the Yorktown. The Japanese are able to withdraw and the USN doesn't push too hard because it is down a carrier. The Japanese are able to get away while the warplanes skirmish above and both sides more less have to retreat for resupply refueling. If the fleets are in the same shape the US WILL finish it off. The USN was not made up of idiots. When you are able to finish off a ship you finish it off, you don't let it limp home so you have to fight it again.

 

[ennobee]

Ok, but I was thinking more after the OTL Battle of Midway.

The carriers are all in their damaged condition as per OTL, after that and assuming the USN leaves them alone, can they be successfully salvaged?

Probably they could. But Japan would still have lost the cream of their navy pilots. Even with an ASB magically repairing all their aircraft carriers the day after Midway, the next clash between American an Japanese task forces would see a bunch of rooky Japanese pilots face off against an American adversary who just learned how to play the game in earnest and is flying the next generation of planes built with the lessons of the last battles in mind. (The Japanese would still be flying Zeros without armor.) The result would be the Mariana's Turkey Shoot 2.0 after which the new US Avenger torpedo bombers would have free reign over the skies to sink all Japanese càrriers a second time.

 

[marathag]

Theoretically, if America left the crippled ships alone, could any of them have actually been saved and returned (Towed) to Japan (Or Japanese territory) for salvage / repairs?

Or the USN does a High Seas boarding party and gets an unexpected Prize.

That would be a real capper for the Midway Operation

 

[Johnrankins]

Or the USN does a High Seas boarding party and gets an unexpected Prize.

That would be a real capper for the Midway Operation

Certainly more likely than the USN leaving them alone for no particular reason.

 

[Draconis]

Or the USN does a High Seas boarding party and gets an unexpected Prize.
That would be a real capper for the Midway Operation

If the U.S. Navy through some unusual events managed to capture one of the heavily damaged IJN carriers what would they do with it? Would repairing and refurbishing a badly damaged and unfamiliar aircraft carrier be more trouble and expense that its worth?

 

[Johnrankins]

If the U.S. Navy through some unusual events managed to capture one of the heavily damaged IJN carriers what would they do with it? Would repairing and refurbishing a badly damaged and unfamiliar aircraft carrier be more trouble and expense that its worth?

Probably not. The USN would have to replace almost everything except the hull and the flight deck. It isn't like the US was making Japanese engines or spare parts.

 

[marathag]

If the U.S. Navy through some unusual events managed to capture one of the heavily damaged IJN carriers what would they do with it?

Trophy. Tow that burned out wreck from port to port, to show off the might of the USN

 

[eltf177]

From what I understand the fires were pretty much out of control. And the Japanese had no tugs. The USN would more than likely sink them to make sure the IJN couldn't even bother with salvage. Even if the USN could tow one to Hawaii the only thing I see is looking around for any intelligence material (which is probably ashes by now), then scrapping them and putting the recycled steel in US warships as a major propaganda coup.

 

[Alanith]

From what I understand, all four carriers were basically burnt out shells by the point they were finally sunk. The only thing they'd be good for the Japanese is scrapping to use their materials for a new carrier.

 

[BELFAST]

I am not sure what difference it would make.
Japans problem was not the loss of the carriers, it was the loss of the trained carrier pilots that were hard to replace.

 

[RamscoopRaider]

Maybe if the carriers from Midway are repairable then Japan does not go into overdrive panic trying to compensate for their loss

So Shinano gets finished as a Battleship and is ready in time for Leyte Gulf, Ibuki is possibly ready as a CA, the Ise's aren't converted, and more DD's get finished. Could make 1944 more interesting

 

[Cryhavoc101]

I am not sure what difference it would make.
Japans problem was not the loss of the carriers, it was the loss of the trained carrier pilots that were hard to replace.

They lost relatively few pilots IIRC about 80 odd?

The IJN had a pilot pool of about 4000 - it was mainly the island chain battles of 43 that chewed them up fighting the USN and Aussies

It was the aircraft technicians and other specialized sailors and officers from the 4 carriers that were the most serious loss to the IJN

Akagi: 267 KIA (comp. 1630); Kaga: 811 KIA (comp. 1708); Hiryū: 392 KIA (comp. 1100); Soryū: 711 KIA (comp. 1100)

Given the nature of the damage to those 4 ships - ie hanger hits I can only imagine that the 'ground crews' took the lions share of the casualties

Edit : By comparison Yorktown's crew suffered 141 KIA out of a comp of 2,217

 

[Scott Washburn]

I believe that the OP was asking about the physical difficulties of getting the carriers back to a repair base. They would be enormous. The Americans faced similar situations a number of times with crippled carriers (Lexington, Yorktown, Hornet, Wasp) and had very little luck with tows. Granted Japanese submarines finished off several of them, but trying to tow such large ships proved extremely difficult. After those experiences, the USN tried to keep fleet tugs around. Lacking those, the Japanese were faced with detailing at least a cruiser-sized vessel for each of the carriers and then escorting them a VERY long distance back to a friendly base. Even with no American interference, it would be a Herculean task. And if they encountered any really bad weather, it would be game over.

 

[eltf177]

Many IJN pilots survived Midway per SHATTERED SWORD, it was the meat-grinder at Guadalcanal that many of them were lost.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

Tow speeds in this situation are under ten knots. IIRC the Yorktowns tow speed was three knots.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

From what I understand, all four carriers were basically burnt out shells by the point they were finally sunk. The only thing they'd be good for the Japanese is scrapping to use their materials for a new carrier.

Yes, all were still on fire when sunk or last seen. Multiple explosions were observed while burning.

 

[kclcmdr]

I am not sure what difference it would make.
Japans problem was not the loss of the carriers, it was the loss of the trained carrier pilots that were hard to replace.

The Majority of the IJN Pilots were saved but had been attrited either by combat deaths or exhaustion during the Battle of the Solomon Islands near Guadalcanal....

It was the loss of the Ship Engineers, Deck Hands handling the bombs & Torpedoes and the skilled Aviation engineers whom were killed that possibly critically effected the performance of future IJN Carrier operations, perhaps.