S.M. Stirling's Draka Series of Books ...

[RealityBYTES]

Everyone:

My apologies, as I'm sure this has been asked before, but what are your opinions of these novels? I, for one, found them to be quite fascinating and believable to a certain degree, although I did find it a bit hard to swallow that 70 million Draka were enough to conquer a world with 2.5 billion or so people in it (janissaries or not). Some other things:

1. I never did quite figure out how the Draka managed to conquer all of China, since none of the books go into any real detail on that campaign. It seems to have happened during the Great War of that timeline.

2. I found it interesting how our timelines are similar, but theirs is somehow 448 years or so "ahead" of ours in the river of time. IOW, when their 1776 came about, it was still only 1326 or so in our timeline, correct? And when they had their 1999, it was only 1549 or so in our timeline.

Overall, it was a good series that raised some thought-provoking questions. I hope S.M. Stirling returns to it someday ... in the meantime, is anyone aware of any good Draka stories out there authored by Stirling fans?

RealityBYTES

 

[Michael E Johnson]

in the meantime, is anyone aware of any good Draka stories out there authored by Stirling fans?

RealityBYTES

Here is one thats been published


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_1/104-8256014-4053556?v=glance&s=books


For non published try here

http://www.geocities.com/hentaihelper/p_draka.htm?200416


a personal favorite( by this sites moderator) is here


https://www.alternatehistory.com/gateway/worlds-set.html

 

[RealityBYTES]

Michael E Johnson:

The links are very much appreciated — the only drawback, of course, being that I've read the short stories, and have both Web sites bookmarked.

I remember hearing about another fanfiction story called "The Draka Centuries," but haven't been able to turn it up anywhere. Any clues as to where I might be able to find this particular story?

RealityBYTES

 

[Michael E Johnson]

Michael E Johnson:

I remember hearing about another fanfiction story called "The Draka Centuries," but haven't been able to turn it up anywhere. Any clues as to where I might be able to find this particular story?

RealityBYTES

I havent heard of this one-let me know if you find it.

 

[edvader]

Bunch of S..T!Read the first book.OK-no problem.When A reviewer mentioned the Draka are AH South Aftican Aparteiders I dropped it.Also I do NOT believe a civilization in Africa would advance rapidly due to lack of materials, etc. I DO not believe there would be any commerce either.I hate books in which the heroes are racists-like Guns of the South as well.Others can read the books but I will not read any more racist supermen stuff!

 

[Michael E Johnson]

Bunch of S..T!Read the first book.OK-no problem.When A reviewer mentioned the Draka are AH South Aftican Aparteiders I dropped it.Also I do NOT believe a civilization in Africa would advance rapidly due to lack of materials, etc. I DO not believe there would be any commerce either.I hate books in which the heroes are racists-like Guns of the South as well.Others can read the books but I will not read any more racist supermen stuff!

Who says that the heros in Guns of the South were the Afrikkaners or that the Draka were the heros in the Draka novels? In the Draka series they are victorious-to a certain degree-but that doesnt mean they were right.I like the Draka series for the perverse reason that its one of the few books(AH or otherwise) where the bad guys win.If you think that its good thing that they win or agree with their views then you have issues.

 

[RealityBYTES]

Bunch of S..T!Read the first book.OK-no problem.When A reviewer mentioned the Draka are AH South Aftican Aparteiders I dropped it.Also I do NOT believe a civilization in Africa would advance rapidly due to lack of materials, etc. I DO not believe there would be any commerce either.I hate books in which the heroes are racists-like Guns of the South as well.Others can read the books but I will not read any more racist supermen stuff!

**shrug** Based on my readings, S.M. Stirling does *not* paint the Draka as some sort of heroic superhumans.

I can't remember his exact words, but in response to similar criticism in the past, I believe Stirling said something to the effect that he was writing a dystopian-type of future. IOW, one that isn't a happy one and should be avoided at all costs. And if you'd read the trilogy plus the two standalone books that came out in the trilogy's wake, you'd understand that. But since you "droppped" the series after the first book, it seems you wouldn't exactly be in the best position to offer an informed critique, no?

All that said — and speaking generally — is information found on Wikpedia (a self-described free Web encyclopedia) generally to be trusted? I'm curious because Wikpedia has a rather extensive entry on the Draka, along with maps and whatnot. The entry contained information I hadn't been aware of before (perhaps it was originally in the appendices that weren't included with the re-release of the trilogy in the late 1990s).

RealityBYTES

 

[Johnestauffer]

One fascinating part of the Draka history is the lack of organized oppostion to their conquest. You would think the the major powers would view the Draka conquest with alarm and move to squash them early on. If I remember, the Draka invade Europe/Russia during the 2nd World War. If they were powerful enough for this why didn't somebody get worried about them?
The seemed to have slightly superior technology. How could you develop a war machine suitable for world conquest in a vaccum? Wouldn't some information about their plans come to light?

I guess that in may AH scenarios we have to believe in the time line and not get wrapped up in the details. (Many AH books presume so many world wide developments that it is hard to visualize how they came to pass)

 

[RealityBYTES]

Johnestauffer:

Y'know, I found myself asking similar questions, especially with the onset and conclusion of the Eurasian War (equivalent to our own World War II, but more deadly, apparently).

I found it hard to believe that America would let the Europeans be conquered and enslaved even with the revelation of Hitler's and Stalin's death camps. I mean, the Draka — a slave-owning, racist society — seems even worse to me than those atrocities. The only thing I can figure is that there's some information in the appendices — which weren't included in the hardcover trilogy that I have — that explains a lot of the reasoning behind how Stirling's dystopian world came into being.

Nonetheless, I just find the world of the Draka eerily fascinating in the sense that I envision another version of me living in the Upper Midwest at the time of the Final War and wondering whatever became of him ...

RealityBYTES

 

[joatsimeon@aol.com]

Who says that the heros in Guns of the South were the Afrikkaners or that the Draka were the heros in the Draka novels?

-- what's the polite way to say "Don't you recognize a dystopia when you see one?"

>In the Draka series they are victorious-to a certain degree-but that doesnt mean they were right.I like the Draka series for the perverse reason that its one of the few books(AH or otherwise) where the bad guys win.If you think that its good thing that they win or agree with their views then you have issues.

-- I'd agree with that.

 

[George Carty]

I found it hard to believe that America would let the Europeans be conquered and enslaved even with the revelation of Hitler's and Stalin's death camps. I mean, the Draka -a slave-owning, racist society - seems even worse to me than those atrocities. The only thing I can figure is that there's some information in the appendices - which weren't included in the hardcover trilogy that I have - that explains a lot of the reasoning behind how Stirling's dystopian world came into being.

My take was that the Jewish lobby blocked any US intervention in favour of the Europeans until the Draka had the Bomb.

But why is the US so cowardly later on? I mean confronted with the "Indian Incident" even Jimmy Carter or Dennis Kucinich would have pressed the button!

 

[RealityBYTES]

My take was that the Jewish lobby blocked any US intervention in favour of the Europeans until the Draka had the Bomb.

That's quite possible. Hmm. I think I remember reading that that's indeed what happened.

But why is the US so cowardly later on? I mean confronted with the "Indian Incident" even Jimmy Carter or Dennis Kucinich would have pressed the button!

Actually, I think the "cowardly" attitude took right not long after the end of te Eurasian War.

The Draka pretty much admitted in the trilogy that if America had attacked at that time, they could have pushed the Draka out of not only eastern Asia, but large parts of Europe as well. But America didn't attack and by the time they infiltrated that agent into conquered Finland, they were already fearful to "push the button" since they felt they'd lose at least a couple of coastal cities to Draka nukes even then, circa 1948 or so. Considering what happened to America and her allies in 1999, losing a dozen or so cities to Draka nuclear strikes in 1948 or so - but winning the overall war - doesn't look to be such a bad bargain after all.

But you know what they say: Hindsight is 20/20, and how that realization must have hurt when the decimated survivors across former Alliance territories were enslaved.

RealityBYTES

 

[Wozza]

Hello
this is my first post in this part of the forum!
Firstly - I have only read Drakon and also the appendices online. SM Stirling's work is hard to get in the UK
But here are my thoughtson the realism of the timeline

1. Early Draka growth in southern Africa - implausibe
2. Draka 20th century grwoth, highly implausible, the other powers throw all balance of power calculations out of the window
3. advancing through genetic engineering - ultimately biological central planning would probably be about as successful as economic central planning!
4. Running the kind of industrial-serf and perpetual elite economy and society described in the appendices - scarily plausible, particularly looking at Nazi economic exploitation of Europe (see Peter Liberman "Does Conquest Pay")
HOWEVER: the willingness of that elite to continue running such a society would be a strong factor, success leads to complacency and liberalisation
ALSO: the long-term economic disadantages of excluding the talents of the vast majority of the population, particularly from the creative, thinking work.

FINALLY: ultimately more threats to freedom come from an appeal to the "greater good" (be it eradicating inequality or guaranteeing security) than from Group X sitting down and deciding to screw the other 90% of the population in perpetuiy

Grateful for your thoughts!

 

[joatsimeon@aol.com]

Everyone:

>1. I never did quite figure out how the Draka managed to conquer all of China, since none of the books go into any real detail on that campaign. It seems to have happened during the Great War of that timeline.

-- western China during the Great War (WWI); the rest -- which has long been under Japanese rule -- during the tail-end of the Eurasian War (WWII).


>2. I found it interesting how our timelines are similar, but theirs is somehow 448 years or so "ahead" of ours in the river of time. IOW, when their 1776 came about, it was still only 1326 or so in our timeline, correct? And when they had their 1999, it was only 1549 or so in our timeline.

-- not really. 'Drakon' involves time travel "back" as well as "sideways".

 

[joatsimeon@aol.com]

One fascinating part of the Draka history is the lack of organized oppostion to their conquest. You would think the the major powers would view the Draka conquest with alarm and move to squash them early on.

-- not really. Until about 1914, they don't threaten anyone in Europe.

 

[Faeelin]

One fascinating part of the Draka history is the lack of organized oppostion to their conquest. You would think the the major powers would view the Draka conquest with alarm and move to squash them early on.

-- not really. Until about 1914, they don't threaten anyone in Europe.

Well, I dunno. A massive navy sitting in Alexandria, Algiers, etc. and no one looks at them oddly?

And after 1914, they've enslaved whites (Bulgarians, for starters, and Russians).

 

[RealityBYTES]

Everyone:

>1. I never did quite figure out how the Draka managed to conquer all of China, since none of the books go into any real detail on that campaign. It seems to have happened during the Great War of that timeline.

-- western China during the Great War (WWI); the rest -- which has long been under Japanese rule -- during the tail-end of the Eurasian War (WWII).

Hmm. Was that where the Draka had to use nuclear weapons to dislodge fanatical Japanese soldiers from their redoubts? Or is that something I read on Wikipedia and, thus, isn't canon?

>2. I found it interesting how our timelines are similar, but theirs is somehow 448 years or so "ahead" of ours in the river of time. IOW, when their 1776 came about, it was still only 1326 or so in our timeline, correct? And when they had their 1999, it was only 1549 or so in our timeline.

-- not really. 'Drakon' involves time travel "back" as well as "sideways".

Fascinating. So Gwen, et al., traveled back to the 1995 of their timeline, but then, once there, shifted "sideways" into our 1995? So both timelines are temporally equal (i.e. if it's 2005 here, it's 2005 there)?

RealityBYTES

 

[Bulldawg85]

Actually Hitler

One fascinating part of the Draka history is the lack of organized oppostion to their conquest. You would think the the major powers would view the Draka conquest with alarm and move to squash them early on. If I remember, the Draka invade Europe/Russia during the 2nd World War. If they were powerful enough for this why didn't somebody get worried about them?
The seemed to have slightly superior technology. How could you develop a war machine suitable for world conquest in a vaccum? Wouldn't some information about their plans come to light?

A long time ago I read the diplomatic notes from the U.S. embassy in Berlin in 1933 when Hitler came to power and basically there were 2 trains of thought regarding Hitler. One train was that his speeches and Mein Kampf were all just rhetoric. He couldn't be serious about the Jews, etc. after all. The other train of thought was that better to have him go against the Bolsheviks. This is a OTL example of having something right in front of you and not even believing it then.

 

[George Carty]

A long time ago I read the diplomatic notes from the U.S. embassy in Berlin in 1933 when Hitler came to power and basically there were 2 trains of thought regarding Hitler. One train was that his speeches and Mein Kampf were all just rhetoric. He couldn't be serious about the Jews, etc. after all. The other train of thought was that better to have him go against the Bolsheviks. This is a OTL example of having something right in front of you and not even believing it then.

Given Germany's small size in 1933 it is easy to see how the Western democracies underestimated the magnitude of the Nazi threat until it was too late. (The problem was the Prussian military system, that made Germany about three more powerful than would be normal for a nation of its size). The Soviet Union was a much more obvious threat.

The Domination on the other hand was the largest nation on earth with almost unlimited resources, with a highly aggressive ideology that made them VERY easy to demonize, which had conquered a huge amount of territory in the past few decades, and which controlled the bulk of the world's oil. In short, they'd be Enemy Number One for every other major power on the planet.

 

[Bulldawg85]

Timeline

The thing is that in the ATL they were still nominally part of the British empire until 1917. Besides which until then they were only bringing the Africans under serfdom. I don't have one of his books with me, but if I remember correctly until our WWI the Draka only had the African continent and Ceylon under their sway. The impression that I got was that not many people really cared what happened in Africa-not that much different in OTL.