S.M. Stirling The Sunrise Lands

[Grimm Reaper]

Faeelin, except for an extended period Rome was as republican as Athens was, ie, not at all outside the proper polis.

Also, nothing is going to change the fact that the king/other representative of monarchy can claim a certain position(even if no power follows) based on birth whereas no elected official can claim much of anything once the term of office expires and doubly so if future elections are impossible.

 

[Dave Howery]

actually, considering the whole MT question, it occurred to me that the area I grew up in would be a great place to recover and set up medieval farms.... particularly the area right around the house I grew up in. It's very close to the Beaverhead River, in a river valley with very good soil.... there are a LOT of cattle, sheep, hogs, and horses in the immediate area (including some draft horses), and some of people nearby have chickens (and llamas too, if you really want one )... wheat and corn are iffy there, but you can grow potatoes and barley... and there is a lot of barley seed in the region... there is a lumber mill about a mile from my house... but timber in general would be a problem, as all the forests are quite a ways off, for a medieval culture of horses and wagons... still, if you could get timber coming in, the area could do well after the Change.

One problem would be Vitamin C... not sure what you could get it out of that you can grow locally...

 

[Faeelin]

Faeelin, except for an extended period Rome was as republican as Athens was, ie, not at all outside the proper polis. .

But the government continued despite disastrous setbacks that a monachy couldn't face.

You can argue that democracy gets replaced with strong arm rulers for a while, but the idea of a democratic government wouldn't vanish. Instead we get fairy queens.

Also, nothing is going to change the fact that the king/other representative of monarchy can claim a certain position(even if no power follows) based on birth whereas no elected official can claim much of anything once the term of office expires and doubly so if future elections are impossible.

Why are elections impossible?

 

[sphinxeguy]

Why are elections impossible?

Large scale are impossible, small scale are inevitable. There is no support system for elections on such a large scale as a state without modern communications or even gunpowder. A strongman with no limits is more capable than a legislature.

Oh, and without gunpowder, the armored horseman is king of the battle field, so feudalism is not only plausible, but most feasible in the short term.

With the CUT, I get the feeling that most of their population is on the Rancher-cowboy status, lotsa Rovers and whatnot. The giant armies are really more like the Mongol hordes. Most of their troops are lightly armored cowboys, aka cavalry archers. The interior of the US is all plains, so it is a pretty good parellel to the steppes in Eurasia.

The Tolkien thing is just wierd though.

 

[Calgacus]

Large scale are impossible, small scale are inevitable. There is no support system for elections on such a large scale as a state without modern communications or even gunpowder. A strongman with no limits is more capable than a legislature.

Why? And why should gunpowder affect elections? The US managed to hold elections before the advent of rail transport - I agree that they couldn't be elections like we have now, but quite easily each township or region could elect representatives to a senate, and the senate votes for a president or consuls.

Oh, and without gunpowder, the armored horseman is king of the battle field,

Tell that to Charles d'Albret....

 

[Amerigo Vespucci]

Why? And why should gunpowder affect elections? The US managed to hold elections before the advent of rail transport - I agree that they couldn't be elections like we have now, but quite easily each township or region could elect representatives to a senate, and the senate votes for a president or consuls.

Indeed, and in most of the northwest, rail travel isn't entirely dead, thanks to the pushcart trams. You've also got the possibility of an effective heliograph system, perhaps funded and developed by folks from Corvallis -- though pretty much everyone involved would see the benefits real quick.

 

[Thyme]

The post-Change people are still modern enough to allow women a position in society that is essentially postindustrial when that sort of societal role isn't really supportable in a preindustrial subsistence economy and yet they've forgotten everything else?

Incidentally, with all the mention of "Moorish pirates", what happened to the non-white population of the UK? And the US, for that matter- some characters are Asian (Baron Li and the Sikhs) but I don't recall any mention of Black people.

It's less that it's modern than Stirling has (chainmail, lesbian, nazi, magical, warrior, chick: pick 2) fetish.

For the other, if die off is worse in urban areas, and the north-east (US). Demographics are going to get paler.

 

[Admiral Matt]

A smattering of barons, knights, et cetera in Portland were former members of black gangs before the Change. Otherwise, non-whites were rare in isolated rural settings, and those were the only places to pull through.

 

[Leo euler]

I haven't read any of the books, but is steam power still available? It seems like that would be big. Or can people not even create fire any more?

 

[Faeelin]

Oh, and without gunpowder, the armored horseman is king of the battle field, so feudalism is not only plausible, but most feasible in the short term.p/quote]

is it?

Training armored horsemen, and raising hoses to carry such a person, would take years; meanwhile, ttraining some pikemen is pretty easy.

 

[Grimm Reaper]

Leo euler, nope. The ASBs even took steam power away.

Dave, liver is a top source of vitamin C year round. Cod liver oil, anyone?

 

[CalBear]

I haven't read any of the books, but is steam power still available? It seems like that would be big. Or can people not even create fire any more?

Not high pressure. The Stirling Engine will work, but it isn't much use for heavy industry or transportation.

Nothing that requires high pressure or electricity works. The entire Emberverse is an ASB scenario.

 

[Dave Howery]

Dave, liver is a top source of vitamin C year round. Cod liver oil, anyone?

cod liver oil might be tough to obtain in MT

Will beef/sheep liver do?

 

[NapoleonXIV]

actually, considering the whole MT question, it occurred to me that the area I grew up in would be a great place to recover and set up medieval farms.... particularly the area right around the house I grew up in. It's very close to the Beaverhead River, in a river valley with very good soil.... there are a LOT of cattle, sheep, hogs, and horses in the immediate area (including some draft horses), and some of people nearby have chickens (and llamas too, if you really want one )... wheat and corn are iffy there, but you can grow potatoes and barley... and there is a lot of barley seed in the region... there is a lumber mill about a mile from my house... but timber in general would be a problem, as all the forests are quite a ways off, for a medieval culture of horses and wagons... still, if you could get timber coming in, the area could do well after the Change.

One problem would be Vitamin C... not sure what you could get it out of that you can grow locally...

Pine needles, some types of pine or evergreen have something like 5x the C of citrus if made into tea.

Don't people operate at pressure? how would our blood circulate?

 

[Admiral Matt]

Nope, not at that pressure. It's irrelevant though. The sun is a thermonuclear reaction and nerves run on electricity, but neither is changed by the Change. What can I say - Space Bats.

To be fair, an alien civilization that could control the laws of physics enough to "turn off" some of them without dissolving the area into a mess of subatomic particles.... Well, after that, the rest is pretty easy.

 

[Admiral Matt]

Feudalism makes a certain amount of sense (on the Great Plains the advantage of horsemen over pike and crossbow is amplified), but Stirling took it a little far. I would have expected most of the surviving states with quasi-feudal set-ups to be elective proto-monarchies alongside bodies that call themselves senates or houses but have variable amounts of power. Not to mention elaborate lengths of legalese to justify their independence from the United States - either considering themselves the "true" government or claiming to be the Loyal State Government waiting for the Resumption of the Union.

Instead hereditary monarchy and Salic Law seem to be suddenly and generally accepted, and most places have given up on the United States after a generation. Look to the Roman Empire's example for how likely that is.

 

[Cythia]

What is being over looked is the die off. something like 90% plus. Not too far fetched as that came mostly in the urban areas and they currently comprise almost 60% of western civilization's population base.

If you read the stories, you see the progression. But I will try to capsulize it.

Right after the ASB assault, everything you know is useless (or mostly so) and everything you need to know was forgot by your Grandparents.

Everything you can remember has no evidence to back it up to the youngest in your group. No TV, Radio, CDs. No highspeed printers. No Aircraft. Sure lots of remnants, but what you end up explaining to the kids sounds an awful lot like fairy tales made up to explain the world around you. Shades of the Thunderbird and Demon Spirits.


As to no Democratic Government, It is something that only works in relative peace and prosperity. What we think of as democracy is very young (less than 50 years old). Go back 75 years in any nations history and look at the restrictions on who can participate. The further back you go, the fewer who are enfranchised.

Under stress, society functions best in local dictatorships. That is best for society, not necessarily best for individuals. Remember, society is interested only in preserving itself, not the individual. In anarchy, the individual has no protection. So they must band together into units that can be cross supportive. Debate and Discussion is okay for non-time critical functions, but for time crises, Single Authority works much better (based on a decision made now is more effective than the right decision made later). Especially if delay means injury or death to the society.

So, the natural leaders will be selected. Either for their shear strength and meanness, or for their ability to get consensus quickly. When taken in the context of 'Oh crap, how do I make fire, get food, and find a secure place to sleep now' scenario, it is even more likely to happen.

Then add in the natural inclination of the personality type that becomes leaders to desire continued prestige and position, you see the very social tools needed to bring about an egalitarian society and culture getting very little support by those same leaders.

 

[Faeelin]

What is being over looked is the die off. something like 90% plus. Not too far fetched as that came mostly in the urban areas and they currently comprise almost 60% of western civilization's population base.

If you read the stories, you see the progression. But I will try to capsulize it.

Right after the ASB assault, everything you know is useless (or mostly so) and everything you need to know was forgot by your Grandparents.

As to no Democratic Government, It is something that only works in relative peace and prosperity. What we think of as democracy is very young (less than 50 years old). Go back 75 years in any nations history and look at the restrictions on who can participate. The further back you go, the fewer who are enfranchised.

This doesn't mean it would not hae worked, however. Would America have collapsed in 1860 if women could vote? Nah.

Under stress, society functions best in local dictatorships.

News to plenty of people in history. Athens and Rome are the most famous example.

Remember, society is interested only in preserving itself, not the individual.

Societies are not organisms.

 

[scourge]

Is it better to read Dies the Fire before picking this up ?

 

[Calgacus]

Is it better to read Dies the Fire before picking this up ?

I should imagine so. Dies the Fire is actually pretty good, its sequel less so. I haven't read Meeting at Corvallis or any of the newer series yet.