Admiral Canaris
Banned
Assuming that the political will had been there in the West - which it emphatically was not IRL - could Russia have been dismantled after the fall of the USSR and divided up into smaller, harmless entities?
Russia abolished after the fall of the USSR?
- Thread starter Admiral Canaris
- Start date
Would anyone WANT to abolish Russia? The Russian public would not support such a thing and I doubt the West would want to break up Russia by force.
That being said, even within Russia itself, there are are fair number of "captive nations" (the Chechens, Ossetians, Tartars, etc).
That being said, even within Russia itself, there are are fair number of "captive nations" (the Chechens, Ossetians, Tartars, etc).
Admiral Canaris
Banned
For the purposes of the scenario, I am assuming that Western politicians and public opinion support abolishing it. The Russians likely don't, though.
Then it won't happen.
There were about 20,000 reasons it would not happen.
And what does 'abolish' mean here?
You cannot abolish a nation, Russia and Prussia could not even abolish Poland.
What makes you think it is possible to abolish someting much larger and armed with nukes to boot?
Admiral Canaris
Banned
Dismantle it into minor countries, like the French wanted to do with Germany after WW2: Independent Leningrad, Independent Moscow, Independent Far East and so on. About a dozen manageable chunks. Poland, Ukraine, Finland and others could also be allowed some expansion.
Maybe the West could have helped the independence movements that actually existed, yet failed in OTL, but... that's not likely, they would probably still fail, sooner or later (Western aid could dry up), and they aren't that many, nor are they claiming large territories.
I mean, independent Chechen state, how much of a dent would that make in Russia's power, really? And how capable would 'the West' be of helping that happen? It's not like they can be open about aiding them.
In regards to Finland, there is that rumour that Yeltsin did offer to return at least some of the territories lost after the Continuation War, but the Finnish leadership decided that Finland couldn't handle the cost...
Which, of course, would indicate that it's not the most important area.
And if the West even tried to break up Russia, then its a definite nuclear WWIII.
Second, the West was on friendly terms with Russia in the early 1990s. They were more than content with the USSR not existing, and I don't even think the West even had plans for a breakup of Russia. And I really doubt the West would support any independence movements, as thats a really easy way to piss off a country with the largest nuclear stockpile in the world when they finally gotten something resembling democracy for the first time in its history.
Second, the West was on friendly terms with Russia in the early 1990s. They were more than content with the USSR not existing, and I don't even think the West even had plans for a breakup of Russia. And I really doubt the West would support any independence movements, as thats a really easy way to piss off a country with the largest nuclear stockpile in the world when they finally gotten something resembling democracy for the first time in its history.
Yes, but Prussia was not a nation. It was a state, but not a nation.
Prussia was a state within Germany when it was abolished in 1947, not a sovereign nation like Russia. There were plans IIRC for the recreation of the state of Prussia after German Reunification by combining Berlin and Brandenburg but I don't know what became of that.
You can abolish Prussia.
EDIT: Darn, someone already said it! But Prussia was a nation with its own culture and dialect of German. In the middle ages Prussian was even a seperate language from German.
I try to understand........
Central Russia.
mobile rocket complex "Topol" stand at the glade...-It my present for you, America-said an old colonet-it's for you.....Sir, i cant comunicate with Pentagon-said lost signalman to the commander of NATO's forces in post-russai territories-it's dessapeared....
If the West wanted to even think about attempting something like this(which I think would be bordering on impossible), they would have needed some time to plan....When did the West know the Soviet Union was about to end? I was always under the impression the collapse was sort of a surprise meaning it wasn't something that intelligence agencies could predict within a specific few years time frame.
Prussia clearly WAS NOT a nation. Prussians themselves identified as Germans, since Prussia was one of the many German states, with significant ethnic minorities, which neither considered themselves as Prussian nor as German. Prussia was part of the German nation and as such unified with other German states to form the German Empire.
In the middle ages, Prussian was indeed a seperate language from German. It was a baltic dialect spoken by a people which is called "Old Prussians" and which became extinct in the middle ages - long before the predecessors of the later German state of Prussia emerged, which is the German state of Brandenburg. Brandenburg later got the territory of East-Prussia, which was settled predominantly by Germans and inherited its name from its former inhabitants, the Old Prussians. Thus Prussian language and Old Prussians on one side and the modern state of Prussia only share a common name.
It was Russia and Yeltzin who brought down the Soviet union so there would be extremly rude to do it. A large fear was Russian instability leading to spead of WMD and other bad things as well as large amounts of refugees.
I assume it could have been done by supporting every crazy strongman and possibly even a direct military intervention. However it's like a French-US war, unlikely and stupid. The public would throw them out the window, possibly before the next election.
I assume it could have been done by supporting every crazy strongman and possibly even a direct military intervention. However it's like a French-US war, unlikely and stupid. The public would throw them out the window, possibly before the next election.
yourworstnightmare
Banned
Sure abolish Russia, but what will happen to all that territory, even after giving chechens, yakuts, kalmykians, tartars, mordvins etc. their land there will still be an awful lot of territory inhabited by Russians. that will not disapear. I'd say Russia disapearing is quite asb.
No.
If you want to do something as radical as actually abolishing a state, then you need to either have a military occupation on the ground, or the overwhelming support of the population concerned. (cf: East Germany) In either case you would need an international consensus for doing so, be it either tactic or explicit.
None of this remotely applies to Russia at the fall of the USSR. Not remotely.
Or, to put it another way: How on earth are you proposing that the West goes about this in practical terms? Firing off a diktat from NATO central command that the Russians put down their tools and go home isn't going to cut it.
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