Royal Navy gets the N3 Class Battleships

Following the Washington Naval Treaty in 1922, Britain scrapped plans for the N3 Battleships, due to them not being within the treaty limits.

Is it possible for the 4 proposed N3 Battleships to be built to specification (except maybe having 16 inch guns instead of 18 inch), without removing the Washington Naval treaty?



Perhaps already being under construction by the time of the signing of the treaty?
 
N3s? No, the G3 battlecrusiers were further along in construction, at least accumulating material, than the N3s. The signing powers scrapped, or outright sunk, hulls that were completed in order to fulfill the terms of the WNT.
 
Perhaps if they specified them as being 1-1 replacements for the oldest battleships remaining? (once they had got rid of the pre-dreds and early-dreds to get down to the treaty numbers)
 
It is really hard; the G3's (perhaps the N3's as well?) weigh in at 50,000 tons, while the Washington limit is 35,000 tons. The British did get the right to build 2 16-inch battleships, but I don't see a way to get them that heavy. So they would have to be probably a 3:2, or even 2:1 for older ships, and less overall ships.
 
Nick Sumner came up with an interesting idea for his timeline Nach Dem Tag, the general back story which is that Jutland goes decisively in the UK's favour leading to Jellicoe and Beatty becoming in his words elevated 'to the status of the semi-divine' and the Royal Navy and the concept of capital ships in general retaining their massive prestige. Beatty is able to much more authoritatively state what the Royal Navy considers their requirements to be and goes to the Washington Naval treaty negotiations and the changes lead on from there.

The 5:5:3 ratio is readily accepted but the British balk at the proposed 10 year moratorium on the building of battleships as they have already gone through a self-imposed 5 year one and another 10 years could see the specialised skills and facilities to design and build them atrophy and decay significantly. The also figured that after the 10 year treaty period there would be a scramble to build new battleships so better to see a managed steady programme of replacement from their point of view. They argue that they haven't laid down a new ship since 1916, that taking war service as double wear - two years peacetime service equals one years wartime service - so the average age of British ships is 12 years old and the Americans 8 years old, and that they were fine with the Americans also building new ships. This was a bit disingenuous as both sides knew that Congress was unlikely to vote the money for a new round of massive building programmes, they also argued that since many ships would have to be replaced straight after the treaty period ended it would cause a famine-feast cycle. The end results were that the Americans could complete their four Colorado-class ships, the British get to build four 35,000 ton ships to mirror them, the US retained the right to build four 45,000 ton ships in the future and the British got to build a second Hood-class ship as HMAS Australia plus two more ships not exceeding 45,000 tons. This was generally achieved thanks to the US and UK not having any real conflicting interests and some in Congress pointing out that the South Dakota-class ships that had already been laid down with two of them already a third finished and the lead ship forty-percent completed so economically better to finish rather than scrap them.

In our timeline's treaty both France and Italy were given the rights to build new ships within the treaty holiday period, in Nick's one this was simply extended to all of the powers. All within a set limit on overall tonnage of course, this just allows the replacement of some of the more obsolete ships. You could also perhaps throw in a minimum time period between the launching of the ships of say a year or so perhaps, this keeps the governments mainly happy since the navies will be shrinking and any new ships limited whilst industry and the naval officers will be kept mostly happy by keeping things ticking over.

Personally I quite like the idea of a limited and managed building programmes linked to total tonnage limits as what seems like the most reasonable way to get new ships built, even without a changed Jutland. Getting the N3 battleships though is going to be hard. Perhaps instead of possible future 45,000 ton ships that number gets nudged up to 50,000 tons instead, or maybe they use 16 inch guns instead and slim them down a little to make them to fit? Or maybe instead of a second Hood class and two 45,000 ton ships they get get to build three N3s. Either way, come 1932 even if a new treaty is negotiated I can't see them going lower than what they already have so at that point more N3 and the G3-class ships, or modernised designs of them, start to be built to replace the older ships. Assuming that WW2 happens roughly as in our timeline it's going to make things rather different, both from the Royal Navy having a more modern fleet of big ships plus what might have been reduced elsewhere in the military to help meet their costs.
 
It is really hard; the G3's (perhaps the N3's as well?) weigh in at 50,000 tons, while the Washington limit is 35,000 tons. The British did get the right to build 2 16-inch battleships, but I don't see a way to get them that heavy. So they would have to be probably a 3:2, or even 2:1 for older ships, and less overall ships.


The difference between the orgiinal G-3 design and the OTL Nelson Class was mainly the difference in speed, with G-3 being eight and a half knots faster (32 knots to 23.5 knots) and more deckarmor (6.75 inch to 6.5 inch on the main armored deck, stretching over a larger part of the hull. To get those eight and a half knots more speed, the powerplant had to deliver 160,000 shp, compared to the 45,000 shp of Nelson. That is 20 boilers in G-3 and only eight in Nelson, besides four geared turbines to two in the Nelson, which also had only two shafts, unlike the four in G-3. That alone is a reduction in weight of almost 5,000 tons, where the rest was saved on a smaller hull and slightly shorter Citadel (meaning shorter belt and deckarmor).
 

Robert

Banned
The British would have had to make a major investment to produce a Battleship with 18 inch guns, something they weren't interested in doing post-World War One.

A more likely scenario would be an acceleration of the King George V class, and the construction of the HMS Vanguard which was only completed after the war.

It should be noted that neither of those developements would have been helpful against the main threat to Britain during the war, the U-Boats, and might in fact caused them to be more of a menace do to a trade off of less destroyers built.
 
The difference between the orgiinal G-3 design and the OTL Nelson Class was mainly the difference in speed, with G-3 being eight and a half knots faster (32 knots to 23.5 knots) and more deckarmor (6.75 inch to 6.5 inch on the main armored deck, stretching over a larger part of the hull. To get those eight and a half knots more speed, the powerplant had to deliver 160,000 shp, compared to the 45,000 shp of Nelson. That is 20 boilers in G-3 and only eight in Nelson, besides four geared turbines to two in the Nelson, which also had only two shafts, unlike the four in G-3. That alone is a reduction in weight of almost 5,000 tons, where the rest was saved on a smaller hull and slightly shorter Citadel (meaning shorter belt and deckarmor).

Yes, but my point was the British have to either increase the treaty like Simon said, or cut down the ships. The N3's were about the same size as the G3's, less hp but more armor, and face the same dilemma.
 
The British did get the right to build 2 16-inch battleships, but I don't see a way to get them that heavy.

Something I've seen claimed on another board:

On 14 December 1921 the British were offered the right to build two 48,000 ton G3 at the WT at the cost of scrapping the four KGV's and Tiger, OR two 35,000 tonners at the cost of scrapping just the four KGV. Balfour accepted the second offer on 15 December, having not consulted with his professional advisers - Balfour did this on his own authority.(Source: Braistead The USN in the Pacific 1909-1922 Uni Texas Press 1971 pp. 614-616).

I don't have the book myself, so I can't check, but knowing Balfour it seems entirely plausible. The crying shame about the G3s, had they been built, was that the Royal Navy had already decided to move to light shell/high velocity for the 16in guns. Nevertheless, they would have dramatically improved Britain's strategic situation.
 
Or maybe instead of a second Hood class and two 45,000 ton ships they get get to build three N3s.

Well, I do agree with you that the British wouldn't be turning back to the Hood design for any good reason by 1920. I doubt the Dominion of Australia could even afford to keep the likes of a ship of her size in service long term.
 
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