Roosevelt declares War against Japan

[Keenir]

Jaybird came up with this idea...kinda surprised he didn't post it.


What if, instead of only cutting off supplies and trade with the Empire of Japan, Roosevelt declares war on the Empire Of Japan?

(yep, no Pearl Harbor)

though....would Roosevelt have to cut backroom deals with prominent Congressmen/Representatives to get backing for something like this?

 

[CalBear]

Almost impossible without some sort of serious Japanese aggression. Congress has to declare war, all FDR can do is ask for the Declaration and the Republicans would never roll over this far (hell, half the Democrats wouldn't roll over for it).

 

[Keenir]

Almost impossible without some sort of serious Japanese aggression.

Japan was occupying China and northern Vietnam and being a pain in the ass.

He was willing to cut off trade, leaving Japan no other option...so why not cut out the middleman of Pearl Harbor, and just go right to war to save Asia?

Congress has to declare war, all FDR can do is ask for the Declaration and the Republicans would never roll over this far (hell, half the Democrats wouldn't roll over for it).

what would Roosevelt have to do to get them to roll over? what deals would he need to make? what OTL projects of Roosevelt's get axed?

 

[Captain Lincoln F. Sternn]

Japan was occupying China and northern Vietnam and being a pain in the ass.

He was willing to cut off trade, leaving Japan no other option...so why not cut out the middleman of Pearl Harbor, and just go right to war to save Asia?




what would Roosevelt have to do to get them to roll over? what deals would he need to make? what OTL projects of Roosevelt's get axed?

After the 1938 Congressional elections, I do not think he can drag a war declaration out of Congress with any deals. Taft Republicans and Southern Democrats had a somewhat working coalition in the House by then.

 

[MerryPrankster]

If Roosevelt can wheedle Congress into declaring war without a direct attack on the US, it's going to have a lot less popular support and might end up having to be limited in scope rather than the "Japanese will be spoken only in Hell" and nukage of our WWII.

And if the US suffers enough setbacks during the war, even if it's a victory, interventionism in Europe--where a much more dangerous power is gorging itself--will be even trickier to pull off.

 

[RogueBeaver]

FDR pivoted after '38 because the SoDems who were his foremost domestic opponents were his strongest supporters in foreign policy. The GOP was badly split between the Taftites and the internationalists, but in Congress there are many more Taftites in the GOP caucus than internationalists.

 

[The Kiat]

I guess I'll point out the obvious error in the title: Congress is the one who declares war.

 

[CalBear]

I guess I'll point out the obvious error in the title: Congress is the one who declares war.

I did it in the second post

 

[Derek Jackson]

It also occurs to me that had FDR the capacity and willingness to persuade Congress to formally declare war before Deceber 7th 1941 his likely enemy would be Hitler.

 

[jaybird]

Panay Incident goes more sour, the US Navy releases its findings that the Japanese knew exactly what they were doing, Japanese government doesn't apologize, Allison Incident happens per OTL, except this time the ambassador is accompanied by Marines due to increased tensions, someone somewhere opens fire, Americans have a dead diplomat on their hands not two months after losing the Panay.

 

[Keenir]

I guess I'll point out the obvious error in the title: Congress is the one who declares war.

my bad. I keep thinking that the President can declare war, but only for a limited length - any longer, and it requires Congress' approval.

FDR pivoted after '38 because the SoDems who were his foremost domestic opponents were his strongest supporters in foreign policy. The GOP was badly split between the Taftites and the internationalists, but in Congress there are many more Taftites in the GOP caucus than internationalists.

ah.
thank you for providing the lay of the land.

so...was there any carrot that Roosevelt could offer the Taftites that they'd sign off on the war? a Taft Cabinet to the Roosevelt Presidency, maybe?

 

[RogueBeaver]

Keeping in mind that Taft himself was only a member of the Class of '38 , so he'd be one of the most junior GOP senators in 1941. Though Taft himself was a policy wonk and a very intelligent man, the same cannot be said of the others. Taft opposed all attempts to aid the UK before Pearl Harbor, including Lend-Lease and the bases-for-destroyers deal. It would be just as ASB for FDR to convince the GOP isolationists to support a preemptive declaration of war as it would be for Rush Limbaugh to suddenly become an Obama fanboy tomorrow.

 

[Keenir]

Keeping in mind that Taft himself was only a member of the Class of '38 , so he'd be one of the most junior GOP senators in 1941. Though Taft himself was a policy wonk and a very intelligent man, the same cannot be said of the others. Taft opposed all attempts to aid the UK before Pearl Harbor, including Lend-Lease and the bases-for-destroyers deal. It would be just as ASB for FDR to convince the GOP isolationists to support a preemptive declaration of war as it would be for Rush Limbaugh to suddenly become an Obama fanboy tomorrow.

I see.

so, why were politicians unbribable and uncorruptable in FDR's day, but not any more?

 

[RogueBeaver]

Keep in mind the mood of the country was isolationist at the time. Even until late 1940, well into the BoB many Americans were opposed to entering the war according to the polls. He had to lead the public gradually into accepting it, and the process was not fully complete even after the third-term landslide in 1940. Isolationists were truly an unholy alliance: ultra-liberal Democrats who were New Deal foot soldiers in peace joining with hard-right Republicans such as Taft and Bricker and fascist sympathizers Charles Lindbergh and Joe Kennedy. Translated into today's terms: Ron Dellums-Ron Paul-Michelle Bachmann all under the same umbrella.

 

[Ariosto]

Pearl Harbor was that generation's 9/11; it got us to move in a direction that we otherwise would not have moved in. Americans WERE angry at Japan's agression in China, they WERE angry at Hitler's agressions in Europe. However, they believed those were problems that did not effect the United States, and were therefore did not require our attention. Until someone decided to throw us a left-hook (some would say that Roosevelt was trying to make it come) when we weren't looking, we were complacent. There was no way the American people or Congress would go into a war when there were still so many problems that required solving here at home.