Rome and China have a lot of similarites. Both have similar climates, both were threatned by barbarians from the north, etc. However, there is one big difference between them, and that is that China and it's culture have survived throught the millennia while Rome and it's culture have not. So I would like to ask: How can I make Rome survive like China did in OTL? I would like Rome to survive with the culture, language, etc. it had around the time of Christ, just like China. And I have one requirement: This surviving Rome must control the Italian peninsula and the City of Rome, so no surviving Byzantium scenarios unless Byzantium contains Italy and Rome.
Rome survives like China
- Thread starter Siberian Tiger
- Start date
The fundamental difference is that China had hereditary monarchy. Rome did not. Which, amongst other things, meant that destructive Civil Wars were an integral part of the Roman state (China had those too, but it had a good deal more stability).
There's also economics to consider. The Roman Empire relied on looting fresh territories. Looting fresh territories required a giant army, which was itself expensive.
Well, technically China didn't survive. It's just able to reborn.
The so-called Chinese "dynasties" have very different levels of continuity between themselves, and many of them were completely different states compared to the previous ones, and the only thing they have in common is the place and people they rule, the best examples being the Yuan and Qing Dynasties, which were derived from foreign empires. It's not that different from what happens to Iran and Egypt.
There are two things that made Rome different from China:
1) no one besides the Romans really managed to unify their land. The ottomans came close, but weren't completely successful.
2) most of the population of former roman lands doesn't consider themselves to be "Romans", and not even part of the same ethnicity. Meanwhile, most Chinese people kept calling themselves "Han", from the name of the Han Dynasty/State.
Get some (not necessarily roman in origin) state(s) to reunify the land and keep the roman identity alive and you get the same phenomenon as China's.
The so-called Chinese "dynasties" have very different levels of continuity between themselves, and many of them were completely different states compared to the previous ones, and the only thing they have in common is the place and people they rule, the best examples being the Yuan and Qing Dynasties, which were derived from foreign empires. It's not that different from what happens to Iran and Egypt.
There are two things that made Rome different from China:
1) no one besides the Romans really managed to unify their land. The ottomans came close, but weren't completely successful.
2) most of the population of former roman lands doesn't consider themselves to be "Romans", and not even part of the same ethnicity. Meanwhile, most Chinese people kept calling themselves "Han", from the name of the Han Dynasty/State.
Get some (not necessarily roman in origin) state(s) to reunify the land and keep the roman identity alive and you get the same phenomenon as China's.
Geography also tends to play a factor. The Roman Empire was separated by either large bodies of water, dense forests, or mountains. It helped to protect Rome itself but it made travel throughout the empire more problematic.
China on the other hand had a majority of its population and power in either plains or hilly areas that were all easily accessible via coasts, rivers, and roads. Once you hit mountains, deserts, and jungles, the Chinese empires don’t go much further for proper territory beyond outposts for dealing with raiders.
China on the other hand had a majority of its population and power in either plains or hilly areas that were all easily accessible via coasts, rivers, and roads. Once you hit mountains, deserts, and jungles, the Chinese empires don’t go much further for proper territory beyond outposts for dealing with raiders.
Perhaps Rome can thrive in the Northern Plains starting from the Domain of Soissons.
Maybe this kingdom comprising all of OTL Italy survives and expands into Southern Gaul and Iberia
the Ummayad conquering both Constantinople and Rome seems like a good way to start to make "Rome" survive if you want a post-5th century POD, it wouldn't have its capital in rome however, but that doesn't seem needed for that challenge (but which empire kept its capital in one place for over a millenia?)
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The "culture, language, etc." part seems the hardest to make work. It's not impossibly hard to have the Roman Empire survive and contain both Rome and Constantinople, but "Roman culture" of Justinian's time or Isaac I's time has changed from that of Augustus.
So when has it changed too far? China hasn't been culturally static for two thousand years either, but I'm not sure what you're looking at as far as "this is continuity".
So when has it changed too far? China hasn't been culturally static for two thousand years either, but I'm not sure what you're looking at as far as "this is continuity".
I would posit that the only things required are (A) the people living within said state to believe it, and (B) enough people outside said state are willing to to agree with them.
It's a whole "Ship of Theseus" thing.
Yeah. The main problem I see with B is that saying "You're not really X even though you identify as X." is an excruciatingly messy topic - current events have brought up one of the cases.
But if going by A, it seems like you just need the empire of the east (and Constantinople) + Italia.
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The simple thing is for there to be empires who are able to come about who hold the heartland of the Roman Empire(the Mediterranean). There can be periods of disunity. The Gods knows that the Chinese had their fair share throughout the history. What made China different then Rome is that there was always an empire that claimed it was the successor state.
in regards to the ethnic groups, I have to imagine that if you had such a successful reunifications in Europe, you would see more people call themselves Roman. After all the Greeks began to identify themselves with the Romans after centuries, I have to imagine that others would as well with more time and energy. Doesn't mean that there won't be other groups in the empire. After all China has 55 ethnic groups that are recogonized by the PRC, and a bunch more that are not recogonized, and that is just based on a quick wiki search.
in regards to the ethnic groups, I have to imagine that if you had such a successful reunifications in Europe, you would see more people call themselves Roman. After all the Greeks began to identify themselves with the Romans after centuries, I have to imagine that others would as well with more time and energy. Doesn't mean that there won't be other groups in the empire. After all China has 55 ethnic groups that are recogonized by the PRC, and a bunch more that are not recogonized, and that is just based on a quick wiki search.
This is just a very quick write-up.
Easy. Eutharic, or rather Flavius Eutharicus Cillica, does not die in 522. Theodoric's plans for establishing not only a strong Gothic dynasty ruling both Spain and Italy are not foiled. His relations with the Senate and Roman aristocracy do not sour like it does IOTL. Theodoric the Great dies more or less at the same time, succeeded by Eutharic. His relationship with the Roman emperor Justin I sour due to the latter's anti-Arian persecutions but he manages to convince him to grant Roman citizenship to his wife
Amalasuintha and children Athalaric and Matasuntha. Flavius Eutharicus has a strong friendship with Cassiodorus, nominating him to the consulship on numerous occasion, and making sure that he remains on the Senate's good side. Eutharic's presence assuages the Gothic nobles who IOTL pressured Amalasuntha to raise the young prince Athalaric as they saw fit, pushing him to drink heavily; instead Athalaric's education is balanced equally between the Goths and Romans.
Eutharic maintains the rocky but manageable relationship with Justin's successor Justinian. He sends several Gothic warships and troops under the command of Flavius Theodahatus, with the teenage prince Athalaric tagging along. At the battle of Ad Decimum, Athalaric commands several hundred Hunnic mercenaries and defeated a detachment of Vandalic horsemen led by Gibamundus. He receives kudos from the Roman general Flavius Belisarius and sparks up a friendship. The Vandalic War more or less ends the same way. The Goths receive little in turn except revenge on the Vandals and imposing a hegemonic influence over the kingdom of Sardinia, ruled by Godas. The remainder of Athalaric's reign is spent reforming the Gothic army into something that could match the Eastern Romans in a possible war. No such war happens, at least not during his lifespan. The reformed Gothic army is sent against the Suebi and Franks, bringing them into heel. Eutharic passes on in the early 560s, elevating Athalaric. Unlike Eutharic and Theodoric, Athalaric has no such allegiance towards Constantinople. He orchestrates a civil war against IOTL Justin II and Justin, son of Germanus. He also sends emissaries to Ctesiphon and convinces the Persians to declare war against the Byzantines. Amidst all this chaos, Athalaric not only declares himself Augustus of a newly reformed western Roman Empire, but decides to support the son of Germanus, offering him the hand of Matasuntha. The pro-Ostrogothic Justin wins out against the IOTL Justin II, becoming Justin III. Justin III reluctantly accepts Athalaric as his equal in exchange for western assistance against the Persians. The Persians are eventually defeated (for a time) and there is a military triumph, celebrating the glories of emperor Justin and Athalaricus.
Rome is restored, in both west and east.
Deleted member 90949
What effect would a surviving Roman Empire have on it's neighbors? Would Barbarians slowly Romanize under the influence of their large neighbor?
Good points. Chinese culture really has changed over the millennia. Obviously Roman culture would change and adapt over the millennia as well.
Judging by OTL, I'm going with no - you might see the empire itself be pretty good at assimilating people, but it feels like the majority of its neighbors were fine with simply borrowing/copying the parts they cared to instead of trying to make themselves Roman.
It's probably more complicated than a straight "No.", but I think anything closer than "strongly influenced by in certain specific areas, as chosen by Rome's neighbors" seems unlikely.
Yeah. I'm thinking of this in the light that a lot of "like China" rests on "Roman identity endures" in a way that - well, OTL never saw it resurface after the mid-15th century.
Having it be very different than it was centuries earlier may not be a problem as much as it being much less of a thing people (within Europe and Asia Minor) claimed as their present as opposed to the past as time went on.
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AHC: Reverse the fate of Rome and China
I think they would need to control a lot more of the Roman Empire in order to be compared to the continuity in China. Besides the HRE was mainly focused on Germany, even though it did at times control much of Italy. The caliphate at its peak controlled a lot more of the former RE than did the...
www.alternatehistory.com
I mean, a lot of the same points in general seem to be present in that thread as in this one. If you’d rather just point to what other people posted years ago as counterpoints then here you go,
AHC: Reverse the fate of Rome and China
I think they would need to control a lot more of the Roman Empire in order to be compared to the continuity in China. Besides the HRE was mainly focused on Germany, even though it did at times control much of Italy. The caliphate at its peak controlled a lot more of the former RE than did the...
www.alternatehistory.com
Like The China Rome Trope is old as hell and we always devolved in the same topics...and one similar answer, the greeks will not loss their power, Justinian brutality could have been done any other greek
Apologies I didn’t know about a thread that covered this topic 4 years before I joined the site then.