Romans cross the Atlantic

Have you ever been to sea, Billy. Y'see, sometimes, when you are at sea, the waves get so rough and high that you drop your soap in the shower, and then you have to bend over to pick it up....

Love this...you do have a way with words and can spin a good yarn...

I am in full agreement with the reasoning of this post. This is the exact reason that Captain Cook seeded the Pacific with pigs, so that future voyagers would have a source of fresh meat.(now I don't want everybody jumping on me about the Polynesian pig being in the Pacific before the age of exploration, not the same animal, and Cook did leave breeding pairs of European hogs on various islands pending future need. It was common practice at the time)

Fortunately, my sailing has been with a well stocked galley and between some really good restaurants, but then again, I wasn't discovering new territory and never more than a day away from a supermarket.
 
Love this...you do have a way with words and can spin a good yarn...

I am in full agreement with the reasoning of this post. This is the exact reason that Captain Cook seeded the Pacific with pigs, so that future voyagers would have a source of fresh meat.(now I don't want everybody jumping on me about the Polynesian pig being in the Pacific before the age of exploration, not the same animal, and Cook did leave breeding pairs of European hogs on various islands pending future need. It was common practice at the time)

Fortunately, my sailing has been with a well stocked galley and between some really good restaurants, but then again, I wasn't discovering new territory and never more than a day away from a supermarket.

Well, as long as I'm not pulling the wool over your eyes. ;) I'll leave Herzen to pluck a thread and unravel the whole thing. ;)

Damn. I've been working so hard, and I'm so tired, that I'm just automatically processing metaphors.

The Spanish did something similar, dropping goats off on Islands off the Chilean coast. I think one of these was the Island of the proto-Robinson Crusoe guy.
 
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Maybe the most comprehensive account of Coffea liberica I've yet seen on the web is this discourse from the 1880s. Nothing relating to ethnobotany or anything. More its cultivation and its nature in the wild.
http://books.google.com/books?id=7e...BA#v=onepage&q=liberia coffee history&f=false

The modern sources on Coffea liberica are the following (plus 63 more):
http://www.prota4u.org/protav8.asp?h=M4&t=Coffea,liberica&p=Coffea+liberica

• Burkill, H.M., 1997. The useful plants of West Tropical Africa. 2nd Edition. Volume 4, Families M–R. Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew, Richmond, United Kingdom. 969 pp.
• Decary, R., 1946. Plantes et animaux utiles de Madagascar. Annales du Musée Colonial de Marseille, 54e année, 6e série, 4e volume, 1er et dernier fascicule. 234 pp.
• Neuwinger, H.D., 2000. African traditional medicine: a dictionary of plant use and applications. Medpharm Scientific, Stuttgart, Germany. 589 pp.
• Raponda-Walker, A. & Sillans, R., 1961. Les plantes utiles du Gabon. Paul Lechevalier, Paris, France. 614 pp.
• van der Vossen, H.A.M. & Wessel, M. (Editors), 2000. Plant Resources of South-East Asia No 16. Stimulants. Backhuys Publishers, Leiden, Netherlands. 201 pp.

One is going to have to take a veritable academic interest in this to pursue the matter further or, as DValdron implied earlier, to pursue it more as art than science.

There doesn't seem to be a single specific ethnobotanical or deep historical account of this subspecies that has been published. I've looked pretty comprehensively.
 
It's the same confusion and ignorance of both historical and symbolic context that lead lunatics to think these hieroglyphs represent rockets or other modern features.

The one I like is the gold 'aeroplanes' that they built scale mockups of 'that actually flew'.

Well, yeah, you put enough power on a barn door and you can make it fly. Especially if you make some 'minor modifications'.

I guess from a 'intellectual exercise' this stuff is harmless. I wonder how many people actually believe it though... and whether the authors actually believe it or just are out to make money?
 
I guess from a 'intellectual exercise' this stuff is harmless.
Only up to a point, unfortunatly.

I wonder how many people actually believe it though... and whether the authors actually believe it or just are out to make money?
It depends of the political context : usually, people are more ready to believe in "secret history" or historical conspiration when confronted to failing political power or if this one actually base himself partially or not on crazy stuff.

Bosnian pyramids, new chronology...

I'm ready to believe in the sincerity of authors, even the ones that actually make money out of it, but such stuff usually support other "secret" or "conspirational" stuff on modern matters.
 
There doesn't seem to be a single specific ethnobotanical or deep historical account of this subspecies that has been published. I've looked pretty comprehensively.

I haven't found a comprehensive source either, but some brief googling found a few points of interest.

Firstly, it looks like the species naturalises pretty easily in the right sort of environments. Coffea liberica has, in fact, naturalised itself in Australia (far north Queensland), for example. This is touched on in this factsheet, for example. Which means that it's entirely possible that a wayward bird, or flock of birds, deposits it (ahem) on a few North Atlantic islands, and that it establishes itself there. The same article also mentions that Coffee liberica can be cultivated as a shrub, which is a plus for any would-be coffee growers.

Secondly, while Coffea liberica is cultivated today, it only accounts for about 1% of the global coffee harvest. This is largely because it is sensitive to coffee wilt disease (Gibberella xylarioides). However, for the purposes of a Roman Atlantic coffee disease, this is actually a plus. Coffee wilt is unlikely to reach the North Atlantic islands, and so Coffea liberica can still thrive there. But it will be more of a problem if anyone tries to cultivate coffee on the African mainland, where coffee wilt is more likely to be around. Exclusivity of supply: quite a plus, at the moment.

Thirdly, Coffea liberica is preferred over some other coffee species because it is not as bitter (when compared to robusta), and has a clustered fruit maturation which leads to better coffee quality and higher seed weight. Also, Coffea liberica has been cultivated for about 150 years, and in that time it is still essentially its wild form; it hasn't undergone true domestication. In other words, cultivating liberica is reasonably plausible without needing to undergo any domestication first. (I've found this out based on an article (pdf)which is mostly about the genetic makeup of Coffea liberica and a relative, but its introduction gives a few useful details about the plant. I can't the link to copy properly, but PM me if you want a pdf of the article.)

In other words, bring on Carthaginian coffee. The only downside is that if Hannibal's forces are still drinking coffee, the butterfly dampers won't be strong enough to prevent them from feeling extra alert after Cannae and marching on Rome to win the Second Punic War.
 
I haven't found a comprehensive source either, but some brief googling found a few points of interest.

Firstly, it looks like the species naturalises pretty easily in the right sort of environments. Coffea liberica has, in fact, naturalised itself in Australia (far north Queensland), for example. This is touched on in this factsheet, for example. Which means that it's entirely possible that a wayward bird, or flock of birds, deposits it (ahem) on a few North Atlantic islands, and that it establishes itself there. The same article also mentions that Coffee liberica can be cultivated as a shrub, which is a plus for any would-be coffee growers.

I can see Queensland and other lower altitude (below 200 m.), wetter (80-100" or even more annually), semi-tropical/tropical venues. It has been successfully naturalised in parts of Indonesia and the Philippines. The tropical and rainfall aspects of liberica culture does make it a much tougher go for introducing it to the northerly islands of Macaronesia which are very different climatically than the W. African homeland of Coffea Liberica. I think it would take cultivation to make it viable there. Which kind of makes Dvaldron's initial scenario more difficult to implement. If only there was a more equatorial Island train extending from its W. African "Pepper Coast" home habitat out into the Atlantic...

Secondly, while Coffea liberica is cultivated today, it only accounts for about 1% of the global coffee harvest. This is largely because it is sensitive to coffee wilt disease (Gibberella xylarioides). However, for the purposes of a Roman Atlantic coffee disease, this is actually a plus. Coffee wilt is unlikely to reach the North Atlantic islands, and so Coffea liberica can still thrive there. But it will be more of a problem if anyone tries to cultivate coffee on the African mainland, where coffee wilt is more likely to be around. Exclusivity of supply: quite a plus, at the moment.

Thirdly, Coffea liberica is preferred over some other coffee species because it is not as bitter (when compared to robusta), and has a clustered fruit maturation which leads to better coffee quality and higher seed weight. Also, Coffea liberica has been cultivated for about 150 years, and in that time it is still essentially its wild form; it hasn't undergone true domestication. In other words, cultivating liberica is reasonably plausible without needing to undergo any domestication first. (I've found this out based on an article (pdf)which is mostly about the genetic makeup of Coffea liberica and a relative, but its introduction gives a few useful details about the plant. I can't the link to copy properly, but PM me if you want a pdf of the article.)

Actually among coffee fanciers, Jared, it isn't as desirable from a taste stand point compared to arabica and arabica/robusta coffees. It only accounts for 1% of total world coffee production as you have stated and is used primarily as a filler except in the Philippines where its taste (a rather strong almost blueberry note- I've been to cuppings which included it) is desired.
Although that's besides the point, really for purposes behind this thread.


A scenario of introduction of Coffea liberica to the Phoenicians and/or the Romans is going to require that the indigenous people of the area (who probably are aware of its uses for medicinal and possibly sacred and utilitarian purposes (the former is a given, the latter 2 would be utter conjecture as there is no ethnobotanical historical studies of it that I'm aware of, and I have extensively looked) and are willing to turn the visitors onto the potential commodity.

Again its exploitation as a beverage (which requires processing ---liberica has a particularly tough skin compared to other coffee types--and roasting) was something, that for whatever reasons, was held up on the other side of Africa (in the Horn of Africa) for a millennium even after its properties were first reputably known. But let's say for the sake of argument that the locals do something more than scarf up the raw beans as an energy source and have learned to brew it. And transmit this knowledge.

What next? The naturalizing of liberica in places between the Pepper Coast and Europe seems problematic, so the use of the relevant Atlantic islands may not aid in the Trans-Atlantic project. Would the seeking out of appropriate places to plant liberica by our erstwhile Classical civilizations do it? Perhaps venturing offshore from that neck of Africa in hopes of finding a suitable island? Would the increased nautical commerce traffic between the Med and the Pepper Coast lead to more serendipity (a survivable accidental Trans-Atlantic crossing?)? Maybe.

Is coffee going to be a big hit beyond its novelty value among the Mediterranean cultures where wine, opiates, and even herbal antecedents to amphetamines were already commonly consumed? An argument has been made that it took the proscription of Alcohol in Islamic societies for coffee to break out as a popularly imbibed recreation. Can something analogous to this be thrown into a POD to smooth things along?

Perhaps it's better if you don't put all your gold and silver talents into one basket. 2 commodities are better than one.
Coffee and Mastic, I say! :D
 
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Well, another day tumbling about in the cement mixer, another dollar. Fascinating posts Herzen, Jared, I am impressed that guys as astute as you were intrigued enough to dig into it.

I'm way past the point of saying anything detailed and coherent right now. I'll just venture a few random thoughts on the subject of coffee and a couple of butterflies.

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We take coffee for granted in our society because it is so ubiquitous and so seamlessly incorporated into our culture. By and large, it's a mildly pleasant drink and pick me up, but we don't really think of it as a hard drug. Coffee drinkers depend on it, but at the same time, they're largely enculturated to it. It's confined and boundaried by social rituals and boundaries. ie, as habitual drinkers, they're aware of its effects and have a degree of tolerance.

I suspect that a virgin population might experience coffee completely differently. I can imagine a hardy or sickly 25 to 40 year old Phoenician or Roman who has never had coffee before, completely unused to the effects, with no frame of reference for a powerful stimulant... he might end up bounding from tree to tree chattering like a monkey. It might hit a virgin population with hammer intensity, an ancient world equivalent of crack cocaine. Huge kick in the head stuff.

By analogy, read some of the early accounts of coffee when it first started hitting Europe in a big way - the emergence of salons and coffee houses, all these people experiencing insomnia, manic phases, wild and erratic behaviour. I think that there's some evidence to suggest that the introduction of coffee created social and cultural waves. ie, it hit like a hard drug.

So the emergence of coffee, even a limited production amount, in the ancient world might have unpredictable butterflies in terms of deforming or twisting behaviour among the consuming class.

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Even assuming that all the Macaronesian Islands are coffee growers, I think you'd still see major supply bottlenecks. What's the total area of all these islands? Less than maybe six thousand square miles? And the area devoted to maximum coffee cultivatlion... that would be a fraction of that, a relatlively small fraction.

So how do you deal with the bottleneck? Well, try and cultivate elsewhere. But where? The Sahara/Sahel coast of Africa I'm betting is completely unsuitable. Would it grow in or around the mediteranean? Possibly not. Maybe in African region of the med. Not sure.

So where? I was thinking the homeland of Liberica, the African coastal region - Liberia, Sierra Leone, the territories thereabouts. But that becomes problematic. As the recent Ebola outbreak should remind us, that area of the world is rife with tropical diseases, which makes things problematic. I can't see Romans or Phoenicians successfully going down that way to establish cultivation centers. They would die like flies. You might see indigenous cultivation driven by Roman or Phoenician trade. But it's a long way away, that coffee would become very expensive, so it might be an intermittent trade, depending on how the demand fluctuates.

Consider this - intense demand, very high price. Huge profit margin from the Macaronesians, which are relatively easy to reach and well established. Not so much profit margin from Africa, much further to go, more hassles. Coffee goes up to a certain price, it makes African coffee viable, there's enough left for a profit margin. Drop the price a little bit, it might still be expensive, but the African profit margin gets lost. You might see a 'boom/bust' oscillating cycle of ancient world coffee prices, with African coffee surging in at price peaks, flooding the market enough that the price falls and African coffee falls out. Of course, that kind of oscillation, you wouldn't get a local coffee cultivation infrastructure with something that erratic. Not unless coffee consumption went indigenous... which would make potential butterflies along the African coast.

The other thing though, is disease. Romans or Phoenicians visiting would drop like flies. But what are the odds that regular or semi-regular, intense coffee trade might end up introducing tropical/African diseases and parasites into the Roman world? Yikes.

**************

Assuming that coffee cultivation is confined to macaronesia and occasionally parts of Africa, that might mean that there's finite limits on harvest and consumption in the ancient world, a perpetually valuable product, hard to procure.

Okay, so where does this lead us?

One interesting effect is on seamanship..... I need to go and take a look at the wind and current maps. Basically, let's assume that the Macaronesias are the center of a seagoing trade, one that involves islands and the mainlands, but also sometimes island to island, and adjacent seas. Throw in hugging the African coast, and our ancients may be bopping around and eventually knowledgable about an appreciable fraction of the Atlantic... maybe 5%.

Okay, well, what knowledge would they have? They'd get to know the currents and the seasonal winds in that 5% fairly well. And from there, they'd kind of extrapolate a bit, extending that knowledge indefinitely out to sea. So we can develop a hypothetical ancient knowledge sphere of the behaviour of the Atlantic ocean. What would they do with that.

Finally, as I've said, two is an unrealistic number. So the finding of a paltry number of macronesian islands might inspire all sorts of really badly conceived and mostly fatal notions that there are still more islands out there to be found, untapped 'gold mines' of coffee waiting. I could see the notion of a 'land far off' emerging out of a confluence of mysticism, misinterpretations and sheer foolery... much the way Ignatius Donnelly assembled his proof of Atlantis.

That's enough for me. It's been fun....


PS: Coffee AND Mastic! Double threat, count me in!
 
A little thinking out loud before I get back to work. I'm not good with map functions, so I'll leave it to someone else to actually put up any kind of map showing stuff. But here's what I've got....

http://www.daftlogic.com/projects-google-maps-distance-calculator.htm

You can use this handy distance calculator to figure out relative distances. Let's assume that Macaronesia is fully discovered and is an important producer of Mastic and Coffee as specialized luxury commodity, with substantive shipping from there to the med, and perhaps between the islands.

The Canaries are probably the center of the trade. The closest island is 62 miles from the mainland. The most remote is about 290. Between the islands, the distances vary from 30 to 70 miles. So you've got some modest deep water hopping about.

The Madeiras are about 300 miles from the Canaries, sailing north. And about 400 miles from the coast. So literally, as the crow flies, they're as easy to reach from the Canaries as from the coast. Or perhaps the other way around. If you look at the prevailing winds, we seem to be in the Northeast Trade winds, which would mean that the winds blow readily from the Madeiras to the Canaries. So most likely, you'd see the smaller Madeiras production being a satellite to the Canaries. Madeiras ships would take the sea route to the Canaries and then from there get to the coast and make their way north. The Madeiras and Canaries would almost certainly form an economic unit, and there'd be at least a couple of reasonable deep water voyages.

Now the Cape Verdes, farthest to the South. They're about 400 miles off the African coast at the closest. The islands stretch across 200 miles, which is a pretty decent 'catchers mitt' What I mean by that is someone sailing deep water south would have a 200 mile wide opportunity to come to the 'findable vicinity' of the Islands - by findable, I mean things like being able to spot from a crows nest, or noticing the seabirds flocking around the area, stuff like that.

It's an 800 mile run as the crow flies from the Canaries to the Cape Verde, and the Northeast Trade Winds are going in the right direction. The African coast is to the East. It looks like you could depart that coast heading for the Cape Verde's at any time. The most likely jumping point is the lower shores of Western Sahara or the northern shores of Mauretania. That would be 500 miles give or take of open water, but you'd have the winds at your back. Any further south, and the trade winds would be taking you south of the Cape Verdes, you'd have to fight them to get back.

The most likely trade route for the Cape Verdes would be to take the Southeast Trade winds from the Canaries or Northern African shores in, then struggle your way back to the African coast and crawl north along the shores.... which would take you right past the Canaries. So again, the Canaries would probably be the dominant part of an economic unit.

Assuming that there's an African production, and assuming its centered around Liberia, and assume you hug the coast... that's a 1700 mile coastal voyage from the vicinity of the Canaries. Or a 2500 mile trip from Gibralter. South of the Canaries is a 900 mile stretch of coast that's the Sahara and Sahel, pretty barren and inhospitable. So the Canaries are likely the most sensible re-provisioning and transshipment point. Again, the Canarians are going to be holding the bottleneck for any African trade.

The prospective distances for an African trade are pretty daunting. If you look at the trade winds...

http://kids.britannica.com/comptons/art/print?id=166714&articleTypeId=0

110605-004-B1AD851D.gif


All the trade winds, the Northeast Trades, the Southeast Trades are going in the wrong directions, and you have the Doldrums to contend with. There's no real choice but to go coast hugging, which also means that you're stuck with a slower voyage and more effort to get there. It's safer, I suppose, blue water sailing is risky. But that's a very limited trade off. Anyone who wants to try a blue water short cut in this area... they're dead men.

Looking at this, I'd say that the economics of an African trade are going to be pretty marginal and entirely under the control of the Canaries.

Now, the Azores make a kind of interesting situation. They stretch across 380 miles, although most of the Islands are found within 240 miles of each other. Their closest point to Europe is the Portugese coast, almost 900 miles as the crow flies. Roughly similar from the African coast. But they're only about 540 miles from the Madeiras. And they're about 700 miles from the nearest Canary islands.

Given these distances, I'd venture to say that they're part of the economic/trade/travel network for which the Canary Islands are the metropolis. The Azores would be in an interesting position though.

As far as winds and currents, take a look at this....



Interesting article right here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volta_do_mar

The Azores aren't quite in the Northeast Trade wind which blows south and westerly. Rather, they're in the Horse Lattitudes or the Westerlies, which blows towards Europe. Although there's an interesting thing - if you look at the maps of winds, it looks like the Azores are subject to different wind directions at different seasons. In July, it seems that the winds are moving from Azores to the Canaries, in January, the winds are almost opposite, and your sailing would be from the Canaries to the Azores. This suggests a seasonality to the Canary/Azores economic interactions.

From these depictions, my guess is that the Azores would most likely be discovered from, and colonized through the Madeiras, themselves a satellite of the Canaries. They'd almost certainly be part of the same cultural unit, with the same sea-tradition and skills. They'd add to the 'lore' or 'knowledge base' of sea currents and winds substantially, and they'd be part of the same economic unit, which, as I've said, seems to revolve around the Canary Islands as the de facto metropolis.

But eventually, the Portugal current and the Westerlies would be figured out, and you'd go directly from the Azores to Gibraltar. It looks like the Madeiras could make the same direct jump. So that would complicate the economic, political relationships. The Canaries would still dominate, but there would be centrifugalism and political and economic conflicts. The Azores and Madeira have no chance to supplant the Canaries as metropolis. But they'd have enough geophysical options to at least create a running erratic conflict and competition and push for autonomy, or at least more balanced relationships.

Looking at all this, and the prospects for an Ancient discovery of the new world, I would say.... possible, even feasible.

The most likely route would be a trader or explorer ending up in the Northeast Trades, and riding the winds, and the Canarian or South Equatorial Current out to the coast of Brazil.

Going back to the distance Calculator, that's 1500 to 2000 miles from the Cape Verde's depending on where they end up on the Brazilian coast. Now, that's a big trip. But we can posit reasonably that the Canary economic complex is regularly doing ocean voyages between the major Island groups of hundreds of miles, and perhaps in the furthest stretches, almost a thousand miles, and has developed some mastery or knowledge of the winds and currents. So it's not at all out of the question.

The problem, as I see it, is that its a one way trip. Not unless the ancients have perfected sailing against the winds. There's no realistic viable way back. And when I say 'realistic/viable' what I mean is a return route fast and reliable enough that people could plan around it, and the economics of travel or contact would make sense.

Let's go back to the Distance calculator. Assuming landfall somewhere on the northern coast of Brazil. Our hypothetical ancient navigator knows that further north, around the Azores, the winds reverse, the westerlies take over, and he can ride them home. So he starts sailing north, hugging the Coast, making his way to the Caribbean. From there he hops up the Antilles, bouncing across Puerto Rico, Jamaica, Cuba, discovering the Bahamas or Florida, and eventually hitting the westerlies along the American shore. Or maybe he keeps hugging the coast reaching Central America, moving north, eventually discovering the Mayans, and either sailing along the coasts of the Gulf of Mexico or cutting across. Eventually he still gets to Florida and the Bahamas, and from there is finally able to ride the Westerlies and the Gulf current home.

Here's a larger picture of the currents by the way....

CE058700FG0010.gif



The trip out from the Cape Verdes to Brazil is optimistically, about 1500 miles, or somewhere above 50% more than the Canarians longest voyages. That's feasible.

To get home? Somewhere between 7000 and 10,000 miles, depending on the choices made. That's far, far beyond the capacities of the Mariners. The boats would literally fall apart. Assuming that it was done at all, it would take years, astonishing perserverance and immense quantities of luck.

There's a remote possibility that someone might actually get out there to Brazil. The chance of getting back is infinitesimal. And even if someone did make it back.... the rigors of the trip would foreclose any regular Ancient Era contact. At best you'd get some throwaway remarks in ancient tomes about the land to the west.

In a sense, the ancient 'exploration' of the Americas would be no more significant than Hanno's alleged circumnavigation of Africa. Something that was maybe done once but had no consequence, lead nowhere, and produced nothing, except some musty travellers tale.
 
Comprehensive and excellent post and shows the magnitude of the nautical issues. As well as painting a plausible killer maritime trading network of Macaronesia facilitating the African trade.

The only possible way that the ancients could return from Brazil would be if they coastal hugged the S. American coast until they got up as far North as the Leewards where the Volta could get them back via the Azores or Madeira (a la Columbus' 1st voyage). It would be just as serendipitous a return as getting to the Western Hemisphere in the 1st place. They would almost certainly have to refit/rebuild their ship(s) to make it, too. The ships of the ancient/classical era could not sail into the wind nearly as well as much later Naos of the Age of Exploration, which is a strike against them. I suspect that even this unlikely venture would require a more than passing familiarity with the Volta do mar. But they somehow would have to proceed North through the horse latitudes to catch the prevailing westerlies of the mid-latitudes. They wouldn't know from previous experience that this was possible but perhaps an astute navigator could put 2 and 2 together....

It still would look like an advanced tech kit is a prerequisite both to have vessels that could plausibly survive a long trans-Atlantic crossing and access to the advanced navigation techniques that go with long bluewater voyages. What DValdon's scenario has opened the door to is a way for gaining familiarity of the nature of some of the Atlantic currents and winds and an early discovery of the crucial Volta do mar. The African trade could be a push for the necessary advances in ship construction and rigging as well. Also a kick in the pants to developing a realistic global geography.
 
Yeah, going through the exercise really kicked a lot of the pieces of the puzzle into place in terms of the age of exploration, and pulled it together for me.

Such as why Iberia (Spain and Portugal) were such key players in the early Age of Exploration. They were the European countries closest and most well situated to take advantage of the opposing winds of the Westerlies and the Northeast Trades, and of the currents of the mid-Atlantic Gyre.

And such as why Brazil (and so much of the South American coast ended up as Portugese... because the Northeast Trades took them straight there. A practical understanding of the gyre, or at least enough understanding to take advantage of it, could be generalized to understanding or taking advantage of other gyre's in the Pacific and Indian Ocean.

It also seems to show or suggest, as a sort of precondition, that the New World explorations and discoveries was based on an even more massive platform - the journeys down and around Africa to India. If you'd developed a sailing technology that could circumnavigate Africa, a journey of several thousands of miles, and do it on a regular, continuing basis with a real economic foundation, then you've got the social and economic capacity, the infrastructure, the technology, the level of knowledge and sophistication to make it work regularly.

The OTL ancients never even came close to developing that capacity. Not within miles. The Macaronesia hypothesis I've been playing with gets you a lot closer to that capacity, but not enough. The Macaronesia hypothesis gets you enough capacity to perhaps make it out there.

But the big nut is getting back home. That's farfetched. We couldn't necessarily rule out that someone couldn't have done it.

But by far the biggest nut to crack would be making it a thing. I don't know that the Ancients could recover enough value from anywhere or anything in the New World, that would justify the effort of making the trips regularly. There's Coca, and Chocolate, Tobacco, but it seems to me that the costs of such trips would overwhelm any economic return. So what's the motivation.
 
It still would look like an advanced tech kit is a prerequisite both to have vessels that could plausibly survive a long trans-Atlantic crossing and access to the advanced navigation techniques that go with long bluewater voyages. What DValdon's scenario has opened the door to is a way for gaining familiarity of the nature of some of the Atlantic currents and winds and an early discovery of the crucial Volta do mar. The African trade could be a push for the necessary advances in ship construction and rigging as well. Also a kick in the pants to developing a realistic global geography.

Concurr. In particular, a lively African trade seems to be necessary. OTL that didn't seem to be significant, probably because of the distances involved, the existence of overland routes, and the relatively low values.

The Macaronesia economic complex would seem to provide both a geographical intermediary point and the requisite skill set for a coastal African trade. So you might actually see something developing there.

But then, that's where you'll find the huge butterflies. Before the New World is discovered, or comes into play in any significant way, large regions of Africa may well be transformed and the mediteranean may be quite a different place.
 
look to the spice trade for guidance...

Pepper was well known, extraordinarily valuable, limited in supply and of uncertain provenance...(I know, it came from India, but how it became a usable seasoning was a mystery, like I said before, snakes and phoenixes etc.)

Mace, virtually the entire supply, came from a single small group of Islands far to the east in the Indonesian archipelago, completely unknown until they were found during the age of exploration (by the Portuguese I think).

My point being that volume is not the answer to the value of our coffee; exclusivity, mystery and control of the supply is. I would not go immediately looking for new lands to cultivate while we control the worlds known production on our little islands.

Once pepper became widely available in a relative sense, It became indispensable in European kitchens and it's value...plummeted. Once the Duke's Valet could afford to buy it rather than pilfer it from his larder it became a staple.

Our merchants, Phoenician or Roman or Greek or whatever, would want to protect the source of such a spectacularly valuable luxury item.

That is the key...the Age of Exploration was driven largely by the search for and control of access to luxury goods.

We don't want everyone in the world using coffee on a daily basis, only those who can afford our exorbitant prices.

It took a couple of centuries for European greed, wars, and bad diplomacy to reduce the status and value of the spice trade. That should be enough time for some fortuitous navigational errors.
 
But by far the biggest nut to crack would be making it a thing. I don't know that the Ancients could recover enough value from anywhere or anything in the New World, that would justify the effort of making the trips regularly. There's Coca, and Chocolate, Tobacco, but it seems to me that the costs of such trips would overwhelm any economic return. So what's the motivation.

Don't forget gold and silver...

But, in a cocoa nutshell... (bean pod, really ;))
the greatest practical consequence, for centuries to come, assuming the return of an errant classic-age vessel from a New World landfall, is probably not much more than an extension of geographical knowledge (which, at worst, may suffer the fate of knowledge gained by the earlier voyages of Pytheas' and Necho II's commissioned ventures--- dismissed. No lingering practical effect that could be built on). At best, things are remembered and a successor culture with more motivation will eventually capitalize. Unless the whole Macaronesia enterprise launches butterflies that infest the Mediterranean world. Butterflying the 3rd Century crisis would help create a longer lasting Western Roman entity and a Mediterranean world whose trade links to a much wider world are not cut off and a culture more open to looking outwards.
 
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Butterflying the 3rd Century crisis would help create a longer lasting Western Roman entity and a Mediterranean world whose trade links to a much wider world are not cut off and a culture more open to looking outwards.

That would be horribly hard to do. It was a gathering of factors that themselves were quite bound to happen after some time.

- Climatic changes (unless we go into ASB realm, nothing can be done)
- This, above, provoked raids and migrations from the deepest part of the steppe. (As it's a direct consequence, hard to get rid of) collapsing the traditional relations in Barbaricum as well some trade roads (piracy and raiding doesn't mix well with these, for some reason)
- Geopolitical fragmentation (You can only grow up to some size before having the counter-effects)
- Political infighting (Rome was a Cluedocracy since the time they conquered Carthage)

(And "Romans" an open culture...No. Definitely no. They supported quite well integration, but everything that wasn't even remotly roman was despised)

Mediterranean trade, while weakened, did survive relativly well with the constitution of political-economical continuums : Byzzies, Arabs, Italians. The point isn't to "rebuild" it but to know which trades roads would be the most prospers.

For instance, trans-saharian roads would have probably not develloped the way they did without a massive use of slavery by Muslims.

Less infighting between Persians and Byzzies (and that's hard) would probably make western Arabia less favoured at the benefit of African coast of Red Sea (relativly speaking, hey).
But then again, opportunity doesn't create occasions, and you should find a precise reason at least for a given product being worth a long trip and consequent investment.

Generally, most rich and develloped was a given region, more chance for these to have interesting products : the obvious exotic and "promising" trading partner was Indias and I don't really see which product they had that wasn't exportated or copied.

Maybe sugar, but this one could be produced easily in Mediterranean basin. If Arab conquests are butterflied, and without a continuum up to Indias, maybe it would have been subject to a more important long-range trade.
 
(And "Romans" an open culture...No. Definitely no. They supported quite well integration, but everything that wasn't even remotly roman was despised)

The Roman LOVED new things...witness the popularity and proliferation of cults, if it was new and exotic, it was in...only the "establishment" despised non-roman things, at least in public

Just sayin
 
Looking outwards, LSCatilina, as in love of novelty, influence of the foreign (witness the many religions that were practiced in Rome), and simple, naked, imperial expansion.

No butterflies for Climate, true enough. The management of migrating peoples is more changeable. Some of the political factors could have gone other ways, as well. Some Classical empires, experiencing many of the same dynamics, weathered their own "mid-life crisis" better than the Romans. Who is to say Rome could not have done so better (or at least differently) with some changes both subtle and large.

Some trade routes were lost for good after the 3rd C. crisis ----notably the Indian trade. There were some external factors behind this, but the Roman economic contraction most of all.
 
The points about extreme scarcity of an extremely high value luxury good are well taken, and were part of my thinking about the Macaronesias as a coffee producing region. Geographically, they're very limited in the amount of crop yield they can produce. There just isn't that much land, and suitable land is a fraction of that.

The biggest butterflies would probably be along the African coast, a region we understand very little of during this period. The other principle nesting sites for butterflies would be probably a much stronger and wealthier Iberia and Morocco. Perhaps a Far West Roman Empire?
 
The Roman LOVED new things...witness the popularity and proliferation of cults, if it was new and exotic, it was in...only the "establishment" despised non-roman things, at least in public

First, considering that establishment is the one that brought luxury products, their reject of everything not romans or not interesting at their eyes *does* impact.
Roman population itself, though, seems to have reflected that as well : Octavius used these feelings when arguing that Marcus Antoninus was egyptianized and no longer a true roman.

Second, the cults were accepted only if thoroughly romanized and emptied of everything made them exotics : If you find a real similarity between ancient egyptian cult of Isis, and what answered to this name in Roman Italy, kudos.
Interpretatio romana was a tool of cultural domination, and to say it bluntly, imperialism. Certainly not a sign of exoticism.

Finally, Romans weren't maybe the fathers of xenophobic litterature, but they were good challengers. Anti-judaism, anti-barbarism (With descriptions of germans as in the linkess of bugs, being to tall and with too clear hairs), you name it.

So, no, Romans didn't LOVED new things : they made others adopted their customs (being usually a prelude to economical and political takeover), couldn't denigrate more "barbarian" customs. as long they couldn't use it for their own business.

Just sayin'.
 
No butterflies for Climate, true enough. The management of migrating peoples is more changeable/
Micro-managmenent most certainly : depending on what happen, some league can disappear, some confederation form themselves instead. I totally agree.

Macro-management is really more implausible for me : if you look at a map of Western Eurasia, you see that there's only one direction for steppe peoples (and therefore the people they push before them) : East-West.
At some point, Romans, that are at the extreme edge of this continental ensemble, are going to know a major migrating crisis, even if the known actors have changed.
And of course, micro-migrations and raids (as Saxons in Channel) would be the last to be modified, being already right at the limes.

Who is to say Rome could not have done so better (or at least differently) with some changes both subtle and large.
I didn't said Rome couldn't do better (they survived IIIth century crisis, that's already quite well). I said this particular crisis would be hard to butterfly.

Some trade routes were lost for good after the 3rd C. crisis ----notably the Indian trade. There were some external factors behind this, but the Roman economic contraction most of all.
Roman economical contraction is only verified after the collapse of Roman Africa. Before that, african products for instance, were still widespread in all Europe.
Afterwards, not so much (even local copies went off the radar).

But, no, not even after these events, the roads to Indias weren't closed. I could point you, amonsgt other elements, the presence of Rhadanite traders between India/Persia/Western Europe.

While the establishment of a common cultural and economical continuum between India and Egypt probably boosted trade, these trades roads were still existing by the Early Middle-Ages (for instance, Chilperic being buried with oriental products).

Trade roads between Europe and Indias didn't collapsed before the X century, due to political/commercial crisis of Middle-East. At this date admittedly, spices that were relativly common (relativly is the important word) on carolingian times virtually disappeared before the Crusades.
 
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