Roman sailor accidently discovers America???

[Sissco]

Folks I've had a simple but badly unresearched though - and even though I haven't really researched it I'm putting it up here in hope that someone could suggest to me how I could go about researching this idea!

If - and It's a very big if - If I am correct the waters in the oceans flow around in a Circular current? My Idea is simply this:

Imagine your a little Roman citizen living in the empire at it's greatest height - still unified and under rule from Rome - Simply because I wanna Use Spain for my idea! Now Imagine you're a roman citizen who can afford to somehow build your own boat or even a reasonable ship! when ever neccessary you and any crew you employ (I don't know much abour Roman Trade or employment) You set sail around the waters of Britain to fish for cod, as usual, to take back to Spain to salt and dry the cod! However on this particular day the wind and currents are beyond your controll that you drift away from Spain and end up, over a several month peroid in either the Carribean or Florida! You even land in, say, Florida and you and your crew have to sort yoursleves out and trade in some way or form with any locals you meet! You find more cod in the atlantic around Florida and you dry and salt it to preserve it and you and your crew jump back on the boat and just follow the current back to Spain.....

Is this idea even remotly possible? What was going on in Florida at that time? What would any Roman ship crew have made of the American peoples at that time? Could they even have brough Buffalo skins back from Florida to Roman Spain?

Please look at my idea



Sissco

 

[Hawkeye]

My ASB sensors are tingling.

 

[boredatwork]

Not an expert, at all, but a few thoughts.


1. If I remember the charts correctly, the mid atlantic currents you're thinking off are farther south.

2. Doubt there were ever any buffalo in Florida- the climate is all wrong. Still, something could have been brought back.

3. Given where the currents go, I would imagine you would run into carribean isles (or the bahamas if nothing else) before reaching mainland NAM.

4. Not certain, but I doubt the fishing vessels of the roman period were designed for the sort of long periods at sea, especially far from shore, that would be required. The right circumstances could always make things happen, but it would be considered miraculous, in all senses of the word.

5. The return current, if I'm not mistaken, would put you in Africa, south of the Empire, but not so far south that you couldn't work your way back up the coastline.

6. Baring some hefty advances in nautical technology, don't see how your miraculous voyage could be reliably replicated.

 

[Maniakes]

Waters in the North Atlantic drift clockwise, so a fishing boat lost in a storm off Britain would wash up in France or Spain. You'd have better luck with a boat of the Atlantic coast of North Africa.

The major problem with your scenario is that Roman-era ships are designed for coast waters, not the Atlantic, and the navigation techniques of the time rely on being within sight of shore. Lose sight of land for any significant period of time, and you're hopelessly lost. And if you're blown far out into the Atlantic, your boat isn't built to handle the rough seas.

It is possible to cross the Atlantic with ancient or classical technology -- Thor Heyerdahl did it with ancient Egyptian techology in 1970 -- but you have to know what you're doing and where you're going.

I'd say it's plausible for a Roman sailor lost in a storm off Morocco to get lucky and survive the long drift to the Caribean, but it's very unlikely he'd attempt the return voyage or survive it if he did attempt it.

If the ship lands and declines to attempt the return trip, you'll wind up with the Roman crew either getting killed by the natives or integrating themselves into the native culture. In the latter case, you'd wind up with a few bits and pieces of Roman culture and technology surviving in some form in the native culture (given that they're shipwrecked sailors, this'll likely take the form of a boost to shipmaking and fishing technology), and you'll introduce some Eurasian diseases which will be horrible plagues in the short term, but will leave the surviving population with immunities that would protect against similar plagues when sustained European contact occurs several centuries later.

 

[carlton_bach]

AS others have pointed out, it's not a very probable scenario, but it is just about conceivable. Some things to consider, though:

- not a fishing vessel. Roman fishing was almost entirely coastal so no fishing vessel would be carrying the supplies to last the voyage.

- seaworthiness is less of an issue. You can cross the Atlantic on a surfboard if you really have to, and the trading vessels of the Veneti or Roman cargo hulls were a lot more solid than Columbus' fleet. Food and water very much are an issue.

- A big problem for your return is that Roman high seas navigation mostly relied on seasopnal winds, so the natural thing for a Roman sailor was not (like for a Portuguese mariner) to go looking for a favourable wind, but to wait for one. It works OK in the Med and the Indian Ocean, but IIRC it won't do you any good in the Atlantic. The crew would be sitting there waiting for the wind to turn until - good question. They might give up, or decide to chance it anyway.

. You have to find a way to resupply in the Americas, and IIRC in the 100s, there aren't a lot of places where you'd find the kind of crop surplus necessary. That means the sailors have to settle down, grow crops and hunt, and evem if that works, it means the ship is at risk. Returning will be hard at many levels.

You'd have to be extremely lucky to survive the journey and even luckier to have the chance to make it back. The best bet is a trade vessel out of a Mediterranean port making its way into the Atlantic with a mixed, high-value cargo. You'd have food supplies, water and wine, and enough crew aboard so you can manage the crossing.
-

 

[Anaxagoras]

Even if something like this could have happened (and it strikes me as extremely unlikely), rumors of a large landmass far to the west of Europe would probably not have caused much interest in Rome.

 

[Tomac]

Not an expert, at all, but a few thoughts.

1. If I remember the charts correctly, the mid atlantic currents you're thinking off are farther south.

The Gulf Stream flows north along the North American coastline to about New York City and then pitches to the northeast. If your Romans followed the current, they'd be in store for a rather long trip. That current also runs near the Azores, so if the Romans started out a bit further south, they might latch on to it, especially if they got stuck in a tropical depression that might be able to sweep them out to sea.

2. Doubt there were ever any buffalo in Florida- the climate is all wrong. Still, something could have been brought back.

Not in Florida, but woodland Bison did exist back then. They didn't go extinct until the early colonial period and ranged as far south as Virginia.

3. Given where the currents go, I would imagine you would run into carribean isles (or the bahamas if nothing else) before reaching mainland NAM.

More likely the Caribbean Islands.

4. Not certain, but I doubt the fishing vessels of the roman period were designed for the sort of long periods at sea, especially far from shore, that would be required. The right circumstances could always make things happen, but it would be considered miraculous, in all senses of the word.

5. The return current, if I'm not mistaken, would put you in Africa, south of the Empire, but not so far south that you couldn't work your way back up the coastline.

See #1, if following the current was a criteria, that you'd go north. After crossing the ocean, you'd find yourself near Britannia.

6. Baring some hefty advances in nautical technology, don't see how your miraculous voyage could be reliably replicated.

How about a merchant (who owns a boat or maybe a small fleet) who finds out that the local Imperial rep has designs on the wife and family fortune (meaning that said merchant is going to be made to disappear). The merchant decides to head out with his wife and some trusted retainers and go south ot find some place along the African continent that's safe and where a colony might be founded. (OCC Colony might be the wrong term, outpost? anyone?).
Anyway, shortly after the leave, a tropical depression catches them and sweeps them out to sea, wrecking one of the vessels of the fleet and scattering a couple others. (The wreckage of the one is found a couple of months later and said pursuit is called off in the belief that the fleet was destroyed)
Meanwhile, the survivors of the fleet manage to regroup and sail before the storm to the west northwest. They may (or may not) reach the Azores (see below)

​

where they restock on water and supplies and repair the ships in their fleet. Afraid of chase by the Roman government (not knowing that it was called off) they continue to the west, figuring that if these island existed, others must as well. They could find the islands again easy enough by using a device that employed a stick and weighted and knotted rope (don't remember the name though. You place the stick by your sighting eye and aim it at the North Star, the location where you want to end up is represented by a knot in the string directly at the horizon. This becomes a primitive astrolabe and was known to Phoenician sailors).
So they head west, using the rations of food and water and determining to head back when half the rations are gone. They also increase their stock of food by fishing and their water from rain water (which shouldn't be too salty).
After a couple of weeks they reach the Chesapeake Bay. Once here, the merchants do what they do best, trade with the locals. They have things that the natives love, pottery, iron and bronze weapons and maybe even some animals. In return they get food, water, information about the countryside and whatever else anyone might think up (I'm winging it here ).
Maybe they stay for a while, a couple of years or so. Eventually some of the sailors get homesick enough to take one of the boats back to the Empire, figuring that (A) they weren't being searched out, just the group leaders, (B) if the New World (Nova Terra) was really great, maybe they could bring some or their friends and family back and found a real colony, (C) maybe the Empire might leave them alone if they told the authorities about the New World (Nova Terra) and about some of the exotic foodstuffs and goods (furs?) that they returned with and (D) mentioned that some gold was to be found there as well (true or not).

 

[Emperor Norton I]

Ocean Currents:

 

[False Dmitri]

Maybe a more likely outcome of this PoD is that the Romans settle in the Caribbean and are stuck there. Maybe that's the end of it, but you might be able to get some lasting change to the Western Hemisphere: livestock, maybe. Or navigation skills. The change is more likely to be noticeable if the crew ends up on a very small island, which over the years can influence neighboring islands.

 

[Derek Jackson]

What is the greatest amount of technology and skilled people (including both sexes) that could plausably been on a ship or group of ships that might have been caught by freak weather?

Is there any chance of livestock being carried in such a craft and surviving a super long unplanned voyage?

I am imagining a prominent Roman on his way to run an estate or be a governor somewhere like Britain....

Could such a group have survived say in the Hudson valley- by some combination of being able to be friendly to locals who wanted that and strong enought to threaten those who did not?

 

[Sissco]

Did the Romans not venture out into the atlantic at all for fishing? Could they not plan for a several week fishing trip for cod only for there for be freak weather to blow them off to either Florida, or if sailing from Britainia, Northen Canada? surely the Romans knew how to dry and salt cod????

Did they ever fish around here?:



Sissco

BTW The Islands that I Circuled in RED did the Romans even know such areas existed? when did any European or African nation every notice such Islands? Just asking

 

[carlton_bach]

What is the greatest amount of technology and skilled people (including both sexes) that could plausably been on a ship or group of ships that might have been caught by freak weather?

Be on a ship or group of ships? Going up to several hundred (in exceptional circumstances thousands, but that would be major military operations or really big population moves). The problem is surviving. The ship won't be adequately provisioned for a long trip. Most likely outcome - everybody dies.

Is there any chance of livestock being carried in such a craft and surviving a super long unplanned voyage?

Extremely unlikely on both counts. The Romans were practical people and only carried livestock by sea where they couldn't walk on their own hooves. That means nowhere near the Atlantic could you expect animals embarked for a long voyage (cross-Channel and cross-Straits, but that's about it).

Perversely, they might be carrying wild animaly captured in Africa for shipment to Britain or Gaul, but what good is a bunch of ostriches in the Caribbean?

I am imagining a prominent Roman on his way to run an estate or be a governor somewhere like Britain....

Could such a group have survived say in the Hudson valley- by some combination of being able to be friendly to locals who wanted that and strong enought to threaten those who did not?

Vanishingly unlikely, I'm afraid. There's a highly developed infrastructure to support the travels of powerful and wealthy people - over land. Travel by sea was chosen if time mattered, if the cargo was bulky, or if it was geographically necessary, but in this case I can't see any of these applying. Even if a large retinue were sent by sea, the provisions would be too limited to survive an Atlantic crossing.

 

[carlton_bach]

Did the Romans not venture out into the atlantic at all for fishing? Could they not plan for a several week fishing trip for cod only for there for be freak weather to blow them off to either Florida, or if sailing from Britainia, Northen Canada? surely the Romans knew how to dry and salt cod????

Did they ever fish around here?:

Roman fisheries were almost completely coastal. Fishermen ventured out daily in small boats. Salt fish was a common trade good, but the cvoastal fisheries of Europe were abundant and there was no need to go out further. That happened in the 14th and 15th centuries, lartgely in reaction to the disappearance of the Baltic herring fisheries and (probable) decline of other stocks.

BTW The Islands that I Circuled in RED did the Romans even know such areas existed? when did any European or African nation every notice such Islands? Just asking

You guess is as good as mine. The Roman knew (or though they knew) that there were some islands out there. From the descriptions we know, identification is all but impossible. My guess is that some people knew, but most didn't care (for the record, I suspect much the same attitude in Medieval Europe regarding America). It is equally possible, though, that armchair geographers wrote islands into the Atlantic because a proper ocean had to bloody well have islands.

 

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

Slightly off topic here, but didn't the Celtic Venetii tribe of Armoria (Brittany) possess huge Caravel-like vessels, which after Julius Caesar beat them, he used similar such boats for his second expedition to Britain? If they caught on in Roman society, might we have seen improved versions of the craft making early forays across the Atlantic?

 

[Sissco]

Slightly off topic here, but didn't the Celtic Venetii tribe of Armoria (Brittany) possess huge Caravel-like vessels, which after Julius Caesar beat them, he used similar such boats for his second expedition to Britain? If they caught on in Roman society, might we have seen improved versions of the craft making early forays across the Atlantic?

I've always wondered why the Romans never build bigger ships!!! they should have! The Chinese were using Bigger ships to trade with India at this peroid!!!

sissco

 

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

After the conquest of Egypt by Octavian, the whole area around the Mediterranean Sea was under Roman rule, so they had no other nation challenging them in a naval arms race. But they could still have given the Veneti ships some consideration if they wanted to. If not to trek across the Atlantic, then they could have sailed down the coast of Africa, or employed them ships for merchant mariners from the ports of Egypts Red Sea coast, whom would have sailed to Arabia, Ethiopia, India, or even to make the distance to China. The Veneti boats were a product of their enviroment, and perhaps thats all the Romans ever saw them as.

 

[rcmcciii]

During Imperial Rome there were giant grain ships carrying the grain for the 'bread' part of the bread and circuses. Unfortunitely for this TL they were really slow barges with square sails. The best prospect would be the Venetti 'Atlantic' ships.

 

[Ofaloaf]

I've always wondered why the Romans never build bigger ships!!! they should have! The Chinese were using Bigger ships to trade with India at this peroid!!!

sissco

The best question to ask yourself to get into the Roman mindset in this regard would be "Why bother?" It's the same reason there was never a major scientific, intellectual and industrial push like Europe had ~1500-1900. Manual labor was cheap and plenty, food sources were near enough at hand that there was no need to go further from the empire for it, and the vast majority of trade was focused eastwards, to the orient. Why bother sending men out into the Atlantic to look for food or whatever when it was cheaper closer to home?

And the Chinese were trading with Indian nations in the 15th century AD, not ancient Roman times.

 

[Sissco]

And the Chinese were trading with Indian nations in the 15th century AD, not ancient Roman times.

This just goes to show me that I should'nt believe everything a customer tells me in my mum's shop! Just one thing...... wasn't China more powerful and bigger than the Roman Empire in every sense of the word??

sissco

 

[Ofaloaf]

This just goes to show me that I should'nt believe everything a customer tells me in my mum's shop! Just one thing...... wasn't China more powerful and bigger than the Roman Empire in every sense of the word??

sissco

Hard to compare, really. It's not like China would try to invade Rome or anything-- real life's hardly a comupter game, and aside from a few dynasties here and there China had the same sort of apathy that Rome had in regards to exploration and the like. "Why bother? We've got all we need here."

I'd recommend a simple Wikipedia (note: Not that it's the most reliable source yet) look at Chinese and Roman history and go from there.