Roman Optics?

JJ2161

So, I was thinking. From what I read, the Romans probably had one of the most, if not the most advanced glassmaking knowledge in the world at one point. So much so that China itself was enamored with Roman glass products (though not enough to balance out Roman imports of silk, it seems. A whole Portuguese wine for English textiles situation).

So, my idea is... A rapid but gradual development of optical sciences in the Roman Empire. I'm talking magnifying lenses, monoculars, better mirrors...

Think of the military and scientific advantages that would give them. For instance, I was thinking about a system of semaphores/optical telegraphs and a Roman version of Morse Code using lenses and sunlight or fire light to quickly carry complex messages between thousands of kilometers (like Gondor signal fires, but way more complex). Or using monoculars for military purposes and sea navigation.

Besides, I loved stained glass decorations and have been imagining Medieval-style stained glass mixed up with Roman architecture lol.

Would it be possible?
 
EasternRomanEmpire

EasternRomanEmpire

Glass could help communication somewhat but its not like they could see a variation of light in Germania from Italy, also they can't rely on this system even if they found a way to make it practical as the light of the sun isn't always there, horses will remain the main way of communication.
As for architecture you shouldn't forget that glass is very expensive and not every building can have it that is why the early churches had very few glass in it maybe the more prestigious buildings could have glass but it wouldn't revolutionize the architecture
 
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Jürgen

The biggest three effects would be glasses which would keep people more productive, microscopes and telescopes. A lot of modern science developed from astronomy, and people’s need to explain what they observed. Beside science the first science fiction also developed from the observation of the planets, imagine a pagan culture incorporate knowledge of the planets as worlds into their mythology.
 

JJ2161

EasternRomanEmpire said:
Glass could help communication somewhat but its not like they could see a variation of light in Germania from Italy, also they can't rely on this system even if they found a way to make it practical as the light of the sun isn't always there, horses will remain the main way of communication.
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I was thinking about having a three-tiered system of communication.

The glass semaphores would use a Morse Code-like system to transmit complex messages over kilometers very quickly, being used mostly for military and high-priority administrative purposes. Then the second tier would be the normal horse-switching method. And the third tier would be for civilian communication.

Basically, my idea was having lighthouse-like towers with magnifying glass structures that spaced apart following a road. Each tower would be maned by, at least, someone responsible for watching the previous tower and another one to carry on the message to the next one. So, Tower A would use sunlight or light from a fire that would be magnified by the magnifying glass in order to be easily picked by Tower B. Then, they would use a mechanism to cover and uncover the magnifying glass in a way that could be used to carry messages in Morse-like code. I mean, light travels so fast, it seems to me this would be so much faster of a system than just using horse-back couriers.
As for architecture you shouldn't forget that glass is very expensive and not every building can have it that is why the early churches had very few glass in it maybe the more prestigious buildings could have glass but it wouldn't revolutionize the architecture
Click to expand...
Well, yes, but somewhere down the line the technology became advanced enough so that making Gothic churches with huge stained glass windows became possible. It was still expensive af, but not for the high-tier religious/government buildings. That is what I'm envisioning, to have Roman glassmaking advance enough as to for the great religious and imperial buildings to be decorated with it.
 

JJ2161

Jürgen said:
The biggest three effects would be glasses which would keep people more productive, microscopes and telescopes. A lot of modern science developed from astronomy, and people’s need to explain what they observed. Beside science the first science fiction also developed from the observation of the planets, imagine a pagan culture incorporate knowledge of the planets as worlds into their mythology.
Click to expand...
I was thinking about that as well.

Having optical knowledge and glass-making advance as much would give the Romans such an opportunity. I mean they wouldn't have the compass yet, but spyglasses would be such a technological advancement for naval and military purposes, I would think. Then telescopes and microscopes...
 

Jürgen

JJ2161 said:
I was thinking about that as well.

Having optical knowledge and glass-making advance as much would give the Romans such an opportunity. I mean they wouldn't have the compass yet, but spyglasses would be such a technological advancement for naval and military purposes, I would think. Then telescopes and microscopes...
Click to expand...

I think the scientific aspect are far more important than pretty much everyone else. Astronomy was a major pusher of mathematics and understanding of the laws of nature.
 

Evil Crusader

Optical telegraphs require a lot more in terms of structure (intermediate stations and personnel), far more than Rome would be interested in, making message-sending not that practical over using the already extant and excellent Roman road network - especially when you take into account that you need to devise ways to separate bad messages and so on. Late XVIII and early XIX century systems like the Chappe French one or the Prussian Semaphore were machine-aided but still only relayed approximately one symbol per minute, while having dozens of stations, each manned with trained men, their main advantage (ability to communicate despite foreign forces' presence and quickly coordinate policies) either moot or not quite understood by Romans.
They already had (convex) reading stones, as per Ptolemy's Optics, but both the technique for concave lenses and then putting them together to obtain a monocular - and then use two to make binoculars, or large ones to make a telescope - seems pedestrian enough, though, so there's potential. It still is hindered by the naturally slow circulation of ideas in the ancient society, Roman or not.
 
EasternRomanEmpire

EasternRomanEmpire

JJ2161 said:
I was thinking about having a three-tiered system of communication.

The glass semaphores would use a Morse Code-like system to transmit complex messages over kilometers very quickly, being used mostly for military and high-priority administrative purposes. Then the second tier would be the normal horse-switching method. And the third tier would be for civilian communication.

Basically, my idea was having lighthouse-like towers with magnifying glass structures that spaced apart following a road. Each tower would be maned by, at least, someone responsible for watching the previous tower and another one to carry on the message to the next one. So, Tower A would use sunlight or light from a fire that would be magnified by the magnifying glass in order to be easily picked by Tower B. Then, they would use a mechanism to cover and uncover the magnifying glass in a way that could be used to carry messages in Morse-like code. I mean, light travels so fast, it seems to me this would be so much faster of a system than just using horse-back couriers.

Well, yes, but somewhere down the line the technology became advanced enough so that making Gothic churches with huge stained glass windows became possible. It was still expensive af, but not for the high-tier religious/government buildings. That is what I'm envisioning, to have Roman glassmaking advance enough as to for the great religious and imperial buildings to be decorated with it.
Click to expand...
Its very unlikely that they invent such a system as the cost to have all of this professional personnel and the towers is much more costly than just riding a horse and while it would be faster they wouldn't see the point as messages travelled fast enough.
 

Polish Eagle

Reflecting telescopes are, in principle, something that could have been built at any point after the Bronze Age--speculum, the alloy used for early reflectors, is just a copper-tin alloy. The difficulty, which also applies to refractors, is having the math to figure out how to aim the light--you need to know parabolas at least. There is the legend of Archimedes and his mirror, but curiously there is a lack of contemporary sources claiming he did as the legend says. So I'm inclined to say that the best way to give the Romans a telescope would be to first get them the mathematical breakthrough needed to figure out the parabola (easier said than done; it would require them speed-running all of Medieval and Early Modern algebra/pre-calculus), and then have them build Newtonian reflecting telescopes.
 

HyperMuscularDemon

Could the Romans actually discover the Americas in this timeline? If the telescope is invented, and some curious Roman merchant or trader tries to find a naval route to China, then it could be possible for the Romans to discover the Americas.
 

Evil Crusader

HyperMuscularDemon said:
Could the Romans actually discover the Americas in this timeline? If the telescope is invented, and some curious Roman merchant or trader tries to find a naval route to China, then it could be possible for the Romans to discover the Americas.
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They also need a lot of naval enhancement on top.
 
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galileo-034

galileo-034

The most probable, communication technology wise, would be somethink like the Chappe telegraph that spyglasses would enable.
Even with relay stations every 10/20 kilometers or so, the average signal speed neared the 500 km/h, even if the rate of transmission was very low with 2-3 symbols per minute.
By comparison, the Roman cursus publicus averaged 60-100 km per day, 160 in case of emergency; that much would be 7-12 minutes to 19 minutes on the chappe system, which largely makes up for the slow rate, which itself is not an obstacle since you can easily compress the information.
And that would revolutionize the Roman world, warfare and politics.
For instance, consider the communications between Rome and the Persian frontier in Mesopotamia. From Antioch to Rome, a courrier would take about two weeks in the best case, and add two more weeks for the return trip. Add to it the trip from the Mesopotamian frontier to Antioch, that's twice 400km at least. Meanwhile, from Doura Europos, year round all land route of telegraphs through Byzantium would take 8-10 hours for a message to reach Rome and the same for orders to flow back.
Imagine only what this means when the decisional time goes from one month to one day...

 
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SlyDessertFox

SlyDessertFox

JJ2161 said:
Think of the military and scientific advantages that would give them. For instance, I was thinking about a system of semaphores/optical telegraphs and a Roman version of Morse Code using lenses and sunlight or fire light to quickly carry complex messages between thousands of kilometers (like Gondor signal fires, but way more complex).
Click to expand...

Phryctoria - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org

Hydraulic telegraph - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
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galileo-034

galileo-034

Just diplomacy and trade wise...

See Rome to Ctesiphon, the capitals of the two biggest rivals... About 4,300 kilometers or ten hours for a Chappe signal.
1709294241265.png


From the Persian capital to the Eastern Han capital of Luoyang, following the Silk Road, another 6,800 kilometers or 14 hours.
1709295188291.png


So, theoretically, a message could reach Rome from the Son of Heaven's court in Luoyang - or the other way around - in 24 hours.
Of course this line would grow by chunk, each managed and built by either Romans, Persians or Chinese, for their own purpose, gradually, with the use of spyglasses spreading, along with the concept of Chappe like semaphores. It would also depend on maintaining presence in relays, and defending those relays, but even if the lines is interrupted on some Central Asian portions, the communication speed between Han China and the Mediterranean world would drop from months or even years long journeys to weeks, and days in the best times.
That would massively boost the volume of information travelling from one end of Eurasia to another, which would in turn further incentivize the use of this Silk Road line of semaphores.
 

traminer

I agree with @galileo-034 above:

galileo-034 said:
The most probable, communication technology wise, would be somethink like the Chappe telegraph that spyglasses would enable.
Click to expand...

This seems the likeliest system to grow organically into a network.

I put two variations of the Chappe telegraph in my sig-linked timeline. The first had immobile telescopes fixed on locations where a frame was silhouetted against a bonfire. The second was daylight signalling between improved frames at high spots in flat country (Latvia), with immobile telescopes pointed at the next stations up and down the line.

In my research for that, I’d read somewhere that a signalling system existed under one Roman emperor, to enable him to stay farther from the city. Quick searching this morning didn’t turn it up again. But if I find it later today, I’ll add it here.
 
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