Remember the Texas! The United States in World War II (an alternate history)

[galveston bay]

Loving this so far! I do have one question though: Is the Ranger going to the Atlantic or is it remaining in the Pacific? I ask because I didn't see any mention of it, and in OTL it was moved to the Atlantic because it was too slow and couldn't keep up with the other carriers.

I haven't spelled out which exact units go where, but you might find this helpful as to what the USN looked like in October 1941 in OTL, and I will be using it as a reference to figure out deployments

but yes, the Ranger will remain in the Atlantic for the reasons you remarked on

assume the Battleforce (listed in the link below) is for the most part heading to the Atlantic, less its carriers (Lexington, Saratoga and Enterprise)

US Navy, October 1, 1941

Introduction to the US Navy on the eve of American entry into World War II.

www.fleetorganization.com

 

[HMS Nelson (28)]

I haven't spelled out which exact units go where, but you might find this helpful as to what the USN looked like in October 1941 in OTL, and I will be using it as a reference to figure out deployments

but yes, the Ranger will remain in the Atlantic for the reasons you remarked on

assume the Battleforce (listed in the link below) is for the most part heading to the Atlantic, less its carriers (Lexington, Saratoga and Enterprise)

US Navy, October 1, 1941

Introduction to the US Navy on the eve of American entry into World War II.

www.fleetorganization.com

Thanks a bunch! Keep it up.

 

[Driftless]

Plus the Republicans for some reason (I blame the Christian Missionary Alliance) have a stronger attachment to China than the Democrats do. FDR has to keep them at least somewhat happy as he doesn't have the same level of support politically as in OTL.

Is that a hint that Mac ultimately goes to China? I know... be patient and all will be revealed in time.

 

[Spencersj345.346]

The ability for the British to send most of their modern units to the Med is going to be huge, Malta convoys just got much easier. With some more modern destroyers and King not being a pain, the Atlantic coast shouldn't be as vulnerable once the changes are made, though there will obviously be a learning curve for the US.

Alas the lack of a sufficiently sized drydock in Alexandria precludes anything larger than the Nelsons being sent there

 

[CV(N)-6]

Alas the lack of a sufficiently sized drydock in Alexandria precludes anything larger than the Nelsons being sent there

I was under the impression that Gib had facilities capable of handling a KGV, and since most of the Malta Convoys were sent West-East from what I can find that would be okay for using the ships to escort them?

 

[NHBL]

although the US Standard class are not individually a match for the Tirpitz (which is still working up) a pair of them can inflict a lot of damage, especially the three Colorado class, and their escorts will be immediately useful as it will free up some British destroyers for convoy duty.

Even one Standard outguns the German ship, though there's lots of other considerations, such as fire control, training, armor layout, and mainenence...
The one thing that the German ship clearly has going for it is speed.

Regarding the Texas--battleships are a major symbol of prestige and power. Also, even one battleship is a major chunk of a nation's war fighting ability--though Texas is old.

 

[GTStinger]

If Japan attacks before the Philippines are built up to OTL Dec 41 levels them MacArthur may be inclined to retreat to Bataan immediately instead of his historical actions.

That also makes it more likely the Bataan force is better supplied and the fuel stores get destroyed before Japan can capture them.

 

[Spencersj345.346]

I was under the impression that Gib had facilities capable of handling a KGV, and since most of the Malta Convoys were sent West-East from what I can find that would be okay for using the ships to escort them?

Yeah the KGVs can be part of force H but not the Mediterranean Fleet proper

 

[McPherson]

Not as long as Dugout Doug is still in command

He can be replaced. Walter Kruger is in the lineup.

 

[David Floyd]

It strikes me that if the Japanese do attack on schedule, there are a LOT more capital ships available to reinforce the Eastern Fleet/ABDA. Then again, the IJN has a lot more carriers available. Could we see PH-level losses in a different theater? Or, an early 1942 battleship fight?

 

[McPherson]

The problem was the warship technology of 1900 - 1945> did not allow a fleet to do more than raid at that distance. The USN war-gamed the problem almost every year, on the map & with fleet exercises. Trying to send the fleet to PI without a couple intermediate bases invariably resulted in disaster. Japan had ports on Formosa & in its Pacific islands. Truk was a major fleet base. The Japanese & USN both assumed that if the US fleet tried to attack directly across the Pacific a defeat like the Russian fleet suffered would be reproduced. But the 1920s the USN had written War Plan ORANGE into a 'long war' 18 to 24 months of naval construction would be necessary to build the auxiliaries needed to supply the fleet and build the intermediate bases. The actual campaign would required a year of more of seizing the appropriate atolls. The plan contemplated a amphibious force of a couple Marine Brigades & between 50,000 & 100,00 US Army transported across the Pacific. The US Army was cash short during the 1920s & 30s. Most of its regiments & divisions were cadre & depended on National Guardsreserve officers and new recruits to reach combat strength. For WP ORANGE the Army estimated it would require six months to have 50,000 men ready for overseas service & a year to prepare a 100,000 man force.

If you count the US mobilization as starting with the panic funding of mid 1940 then it actually took the USN three years to get geared up for the Central Pacific offensive outlined in WP Orange. of course the S Pacific campaign in 1942 drew off resources, as did the Europe First policy. The two largest hold ups was the destruction of the carrier fleets in 1942 & more important the number of specialized auxiliary ships needed to support the battle fleet. Construction of those was a lower priority than ships for the Atlantic/European war. Once the Essex class carriers & the first wave of auxiliaries were ready mid 1943 plans could be executed.

That is correct. However, an astute Marshal (And let us assume Stark falls down the ladder and breaks his neck as he inspects USS Augusta.) and a pushy King (or whoever as long as it is not Leahy or Stark), can wheedle enough resources and money to fortify the hello out of Guam and Wake (runways, gunpits and pillboxes), while a logistics mission takes a good hard look at Surabaya and Darwin and their recommendations (runways, a finger pier and a RAILROAD) get started soonest as fallback positions. Also one hopes that RABAUL gets mentioned as a possible PACFLT forward base that can be cheaply improved as; *Better than WP Orange Tawi Tawi*. That will fudge up Uncle Hiro's navy good and proper.

 

[McPherson]

Would Halsey have even wanted command? He never struck me as one to relish a shore command like CINCPAC.

Wilson Brown, instead, if not Nimitz. Not happy with King as CINCUS (still CINCUS?). He was TOO aggressive for the mess that is still coming.

 

[McPherson]

What technologies historically could have tapped into right away in mid-1941 vs others that would have to "ripen" with development time? Some things just weren't going to be ready faster than they were historically.

That depends on Churchill and what the British can fork over.

a. Radar. This will help.
b. Air defense procedures ashore and at sea. This will help Hawaii and it "may" help in the Azores if LANTFLT follows Plan Black. For the fleet at sea, I am not sure. The RN four channel stuff is not quite mature yet. Need another couple of runs to Malta to work out the kinks.
c. One WWII mistake, and I think it was a huge one, was that British aero-engine tech was not harvested as thoroughly as needed. Pratt is okay, but Curtiss Wright was a disaster and the US air fleet needed a pair of radials that could be plugged into their bombers and tactical aircraft. Pratts anywhere possible but I want the Bristol Hercules as well as the Rolls Royce Merlin. How is the Napier Saber doing in 1941?
d. British and American sonar are at parity. No help there. But ASW procedures could be swapped. What the Americans know about the thermocline and underwater "weather" can help the British, whilst the Cambridge "game theory" crowd can help LANTFLT use its limited convoy cover forces better.
e. Small arms. How about an Americanized line of British borrowed Czech weapons? The Holek brothers are inaccessible, but BSA is accessible. BREN and BESA can cover a lot open gaps, even if US Army Ord has a John Moses Browning cult.
f. Going the other way, the British could use USMC indoctrination. Their amphib warfare doctrine is "shaky".
g. Tanks. Shrug. The Sherman is on the way, but in the meantime how about a rationalized Crusader?
h. TORPEDOES.

 

[kent]

what about Singapore a change of command would help[

 

[McPherson]

what about Singapore a change of command would help[

Pound, Portal (Back in London), Phillips, Brook-Popham, Percival, Shenton Thomas (on the scene), ...actually now... how far down we go? Ship's captains and the brigade commanders? I mean Eastern Command was like the Philippine Islands. That was where the 3rd raters were posted.

 

[ShySusan]

Pound, Portal (Back in London), Phillips, Brook-Popham, Percival, Shenton Thomas (on the scene), ...actually now... how far down we go? Ship's captains and the brigade commanders? I mean Eastern Command was like the Philippine Islands. That was where the 3rd raters were posted.

Wasn't Percival a very highly regarded staff officer at the time he was given command? As a planner, administrator and organizer he was supposed to be top notch. If that was really where they dumped "third raters" he wouldn't have been out there.

 

[marathag]

f. Going the other way, the British could use USMC indoctrination. Their amphib warfare doctrine is "shaky".

When it's really 'Germany First' Hard to keep USMC out of the party, no matter how much Marshall wants them nowhere close to the ETO and MTO

 

[Driftless]

That depends on Churchill and what the British can fork over.

a. Radar. This will help.
b. Air defense procedures ashore and at sea. This will help Hawaii and it "may" help in the Azores if LANTFLT follows Plan Black. For the fleet at sea, I am not sure. The RN four channel stuff is not quite mature yet. Need another couple of runs to Malta to work out the kinks.
c. One WWII mistake, and I think it was a huge one, was that British aero-engine tech was not harvested as thoroughly as needed. Pratt is okay, but Curtiss Wright was a disaster and the US air fleet needed a pair of radials that could be plugged into their bombers and tactical aircraft. Pratts anywhere possible but I want the Bristol Hercules as well as the Rolls Royce Merlin. How is the Napier Saber doing in 1941?
d. British and American sonar are at parity. No help there. But ASW procedures could be swapped. What the Americans know about the thermocline and underwater "weather" can help the British, whilst the Cambridge "game theory" crowd can help LANTFLT use its limited convoy cover forces better.
e. Small arms. How about an Americanized line of British borrowed Czech weapons? The Holek brothers are inaccessible, but BSA is accessible. BREN and BESA can cover a lot open gaps, even if US Army Ord has a John Moses Browning cult.
f. Going the other way, the British could use USMC indoctrination. Their amphib warfare doctrine is "shaky".
g. Tanks. Shrug. The Sherman is on the way, but in the meantime how about a rationalized Crusader?
h. TORPEDOES.

C. Are you roughly figuring the Hercules swaps in for the R-1820 Curtis? What's the thought for the Sabre?

 

[McPherson]

Wasn't Percival a very highly regarded staff officer at the time he was given command? As a planner, administrator and organizer he was supposed to be top notch. If that was really where they dumped "third raters" he wouldn't have been out there.

I cannot state that his First World War service was not "good". His time in Russia seems "mixed". In Ireland, during the Troubles, he seems to have functioned, either "well" or incompetently depending on whose viewpoint and what political bias one follows. I am in the 'rat bastard incompetent" camp on that one, but then I am NOT a fan of imperialists and I have a bias as to prisoner interrogation methods and meeting terrorism with terrorism.

In the interwar years, Arthur Percival attended the right schools, acquired the right Mentors and punched the right tickets. He even produced a staff study for William Dobbie, then general commanding in the Settlements, on his, Percival's new acquired "specialty", that would earn him his Lieutenant Generalcy. The British were unfortunate enough to plan the Malaya defense based on its inherent idiocies and defects contained as to geography, means and battle space management inside that study. And of course they gave the command to Percival who cooked it up. Grade F across the whole spectrum by US Navy War College standards. Whatever heartburn I have about Brooke Popham as a commander and an op-artist; he in response to that Percival idiocy, actually formulated a scheme of his own called "Matador"; that actually had a snowball's chance in hell of working. That was, to Invade the Kra Peninsula into Thailand and thwart the IJA at the waters edge in the Thailand beach sites that the Eastern Command knew were the only sites where the vulnerable invading Japanese could come ashore and establish safe lodgments unmolested.
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I suppose a "brave" commander could have executed Matador immediately when MacArthur of all people told him; "Hey, we see convoys headed your way, watch out." (How could Mister Corncob Pipe miss the Formosa air raids headed his way, himself? Another topic but I have two names, Sutherland and Brereton to throw at you.) When Shenton Thomas, Brooke Popham and Percival met to decide about Matador, it was a split vote with Percival the decider. What did he decide? You guessed it. No guts.
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Anyway, drawing up plans and being good at "staff" and becoming a respected paper pusher does not make one a commander or troops leader. Not even playing cricket well qualifies one. One wants that commander? One follows the Slim and Montgomery career tracks instead. Troops, schools, staff. troops, etc.: and put the man into tight corners on the battlefield and in peace time service and watch him punch his way out of each tight spot. Percival started out that way, then after his brief stint in Russia, something went horribly wrong in the man and he became an apple polisher. After Ireland he avoided the tight spots and greased through.

A Third Rater.

Might even call him William Westmoreland.

 

[McPherson]

When it's really 'Germany First' Hard to keep USMC out of the party, no matter how much Marshall wants them nowhere close to the ETO and MTO

Quite right. TORCH goes better with Marines in the mix. And Andersen won't bolo as he did, nor will there be a Fredendall moment with Marines in the mix.

C. Are you roughly figuring the Hercules swaps in for the R-1820 Curtis? What's the thought for the Sabre?

I'm thinking that the 338 kg / 743 lb difference in the engines puts the Hercules into Pratt 2000 territory. Even so, that could work for US heavy bombers if we squeeze it. I can see a B-17 with Bristol engines. As for the Hercules in other aircraft? Douglas aircraft... lots of transports and pick a Grumman failed fighter (XF5F) or dare I mention it the Devastator with a nose job?

The Saber goes into the BTD and the Sea Wolf. And into every Douglas plane that wound up with the Wright R3350